Hi Mike,
I have no problem with her normalization of the data—it is the EPA data that are the problem. They ground up Pb a dissolved it in acidic solvents.
Still GIGO.
Werner
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Kirschner <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 4:03 pm
Subject: Re: [LF] Leadfree has gone too far.
Hi Werner,
Yes - GIGO. The data she used comes from the EPA solder study at
http://www.epa.gov/dfe/pubs/solder/lca/index.htm . So if it's wrong, then the
EPA got it wrong. Just quickly looking at the EPA data, it seems like the range
of data for eutrophication, for instance, is very narrow and SnPb is the highest
while for acquatic tox SnPb is nearly 2 orders of magnitude worse than the
others. That's consistent with the normalized results.
Mike
From: Werner engelmaier [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 12:44 PM
To: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Leadfree has gone too far.
Hi Mike,
If you put in wrong data—GIGO!
The inputs on slide 29 for SnPb under 'Eutropiphication,' 'Aquatic Ecotoxicity,'
'and the 'Cancers' are pure non-sense for SnPb, if not for Pb in general.
'Resource Depletion' does not make any sense either—is their really this much Bi
available?
Of course, this gives the GIGO results in Slides 30 and 31.
Werner
Future workshops:
March 3, IPC/JEDEC Santa Clara, CA: "Pb-Free Soldering Processes: Surviva
l,
Quality, Reliability—PROBLEMS & SOLUTIONS"
March 29/30, IPC EXPO/APEX Las Vegas: "Solder Joint Reliability: Part 1—Solder
Joint Reliability Fundamentals" &
"Pb-Free Soldering Processes: Survival, Quality, Reliability: PROBLEMS &
SOLUTIONS"
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Kirschner <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]; Werner Engelmaier /* <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:11 am
Subject: Re: Leadfree has gone too far.
Hi Werner,
Yes - there are plenty of examples, unfortunately. We need to be more
diligent and involved and make sure science and data are taken for what
they're worth. Sometimes, though, "science" can be fudged and we see lots of
that in the battles between the chemical industry, researchers, and regulators.
By the way, speaking of the RoHS Pb-ban, there was a very interesting
presentation on life cycle analysis yesterday at the California DTSC RoHS
conference by a researcher from UC Davis. She shows, through an analysis of
the EPA's solder LCA, that regardless of how you weight the various
environmental impacts, SnPb is effectively comparable in environmental
performance to SAC alloy. Further, she shows that BiSnAg is significantly
better, environmentally, than the other three alloys studied.
See
http://www.dtsc.ca.gov/HazardousWaste/upload/Schoenung_LCA_green_electronics.pdf,
particularly slide 31 showing 28 different weightings randomly assigned
using the monte carlo method.
So going to SAC alloy was extremely expensive for the industry, and
ultimately doesn't really do
anything positive for the environment. There
are problems with introducing Bi into the joint, of course, so though BiSnAg
might be environmentally preferable, her analysis does nothing to address
technical and business issues.
Mike
On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:21:45 -0500, We rner engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>My comment was not meant to be that narrow--there is a long list of laws
passed with perhaps good intentions but very bad consequences. I certainly
meant to include the RoHS Pb-ban, NJ sand blasting Pb-containing paint off
of highway bridges, evacuating 4 city blocks in NYC when a water main breaks
because of the asbestos insulation, etc., etc.
>
>Werner
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Kirschner <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]; Werner Engelmaier /* <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 5:33 pm
>Subject: Re: Leadfree has gone too far.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Actually, it's what happens when an industry - the toy industry - foolishly
>fails to understand how the supply chain it built over in China actually
>works and doesn't pay a damned bit of (QA audit) attention to it...then its
>supply chain fails in a spectacularly visible manner (kinda like the
>financial industry...). This caused the federal government to imagine - with
>toy industry support - that it needs to exercise visible and draconian
>control in order to make sure that the industry does what it seeming ly is
>unable - or unwilling - to do by itself.
>
>CPSC is, perhaps
, over-reacting to the situation in terms of breadth of
>scope, but electronics and other manufacturing industries would do well to
>learn from this little fiasco.
>
>Michael Kirschner
>President
>Design Chain Associates, LLC
>415.904.8330
>--
>Design Chain Associates, LLC - Design Chain Solutions for Competitive Advantage
>
>www.DesignChainAssociates.com
>www.ChinaRoHS.com
>www.KoreaRoHS.com
>www.REACHEU.com
>
>
>On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:03:32 -0500, Werner engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>
>wrote:
>
>> This is what happens when people that know nothing and understand even
>less have power over over people.
>>
>>Werner
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Stadem, Richard D. <[log in to unmask]>
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Sent: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 9:10 am
>>Subject: [LF] Leadfree has gone too far.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>The kid in the picture might accidentally eat the battery terminals. I
>>just had to laugh.
>>
>>http://www.startribune.com/local/39693797.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP
>>4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aULPQL7PQLanchO7DiUss
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Leadfee
>>Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
>>To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
>>the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Leadfree
>>To temporarily stop/(start) delivery of Leadree for vacation breaks send: SET
>>Leadfree NOMAIL/(MAIL)
>>Search previous postings at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
>>Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for
>>additional information,
or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or
>>847-615-7100 ext.2815
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Leadfee
>Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
>>To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
0A>>the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Leadfree
>>To temporarily stop/(start) delivery of Leadree for vacation breaks send:
>SET Leadfree NOMAIL/(MAIL)
>>Search previous postings at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
>>Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16
>for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or
>847-615-7100 ext.2815
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Leadfee
Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
>To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
>the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Leadfree
>To temporarily stop/(start) delivery of Leadree for vacation breaks send:
SET Leadfree NOMAIL/(MAIL)
>Search previous postings at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
>Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16
for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or
847-615-7100 ext.2815
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Leadfee
Mail List provided as a ser
vice by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Leadfree
To temporarily stop/(start) delivery of Leadree for vacation breaks send: SET
Leadfree NOMAIL/(MAIL)
Search previous postings at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for
additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or
847-615-7100 ext.2815
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Leadfee Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Leadfree
To temporarily stop/(start) delivery of Leadree for vacation breaks send: SET Leadfree NOMAIL/(MAIL)
Search previous postings at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815
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