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July 2008

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Subject:
From:
Hernefjord Ingemar <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>, Hernefjord Ingemar <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Thu, 3 Jul 2008 09:26:14 +0200
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text/plain (148 lines)
My guess also. I think there is no technical problem... they got 20%
tolerance caps instead of 5% or 10%.
I hope we will get the conclusion on this case.

Inge


-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Guy Ramsey
Sent: den 2 juli 2008 14:49
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Ceramic Cap Value

I think another possibility is that you are getting the output of a
screen from the manufacturer. Making the capacitors then pulling those
that are 1%, 5%, and 10% from the mix. This leaves the ends of the
screen available to those purchasing the 20% parts. 

It has been years, but I did experience this from a maker of film caps.
Sometimes we would get all parts above the nominal other times all below
the nominal. Never, nominal. When we paid for 5%, we got parts around
nominal. 

-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ioan Tempea
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 11:18 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Ceramic Cap Value

Hi Ken,

We've seen this phenomenon twice in the past 4 months, high rate of ICT
failure on ceramic caps and had the same issue, replacing the parts
sometimes worked and sometimes didn't. We even have a painful open case
on this matter.

I need more clarifications from the group regarding this issue and how
to get around it.

The paper on aging asks to take the phenomenon into account when
designing the circuitry.
Does this mean the high failure rate Ken and I witnessed is borderline
design?

Can it be marginal testing method also?

Can it be anything else that design or testing?

Thanks,

Ioan


-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bruce Tostevin
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 9:37 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Ceramic Cap Value

Ken,

As John Maxwell pointed out, it sounds like you may be seeing the normal
effects of capacitor dielectric aging.  It's a common stumbling block
with parts at incoming inspection, test, etc.  There's a pretty good one
page summary with a handy formula at:

http://www.atceramics.com/technicalnotes/circuit_designer.asp

Click on Dielectric Aging Phenonema.  The aging aspects of ceramic
capacitors are also covered in EIA-521.

A quick way to see if this is what's going on with your parts is to
preheat then a little bit and float a few parts in a solderpot for 5-10
seconds and remeasure them after they cool. That'll usually bring the
value up enough to confirm the issue.

Bruce Tostevin
Benchmark Electronics
Hudson, New Hampshire

-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ken Bloomquist
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 5:14 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] Ceramic Cap Value

Happy Friday,

I need some help understanding how you test for the value of ceramic
capacitors. We build a board that has some 0603, .470 uF ceramic caps,
+/-
10%. The assembly that these parts are on has been having a higher
failure rate at our ICT then we've seen in the past. We tracked the
failure to this cap which had a low reading. We replaced the cap and the
unit passed ICT just fine.

We measured the cap using our HP 4262A LCR Meter and sure enough it was
reading low, around .398 uF.

We pulled some new parts off the reel and they read low also ranging
anywhere from .398 to .425. We suspected that we had a bad reel of parts
even thought they were from a respected cap manufacturer.

Being curious we tested some more reels from different lot codes and
found the same thing. Being even more curious we tested some other parts
from the same manufacturer and found them to be low by around 5% - 7%
and in some cases slightly below 10%. We then tested some other parts
from a different manufacturer and they tested low also.

Now we are suspecting our test equipment so we went to an independent
lab and had them tested on an Andeen Hagerling 2500A Bridge. Guess what,
we got the same low readings.

After all that my question is, what are we doing wrong to get such low
readings on these ceramic caps? It just doesn't seem likely that four
different parts from three different major suppliers tested on two
different pieces of equipment would all be that far down on the low end.

Any education in capacitor testing and reading would surely be
appreciated.

Best regards,

KennyB

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