Sorry, David and/or Richard, all HFCs and PFCs ARE controlled substances
under the Kyoto Protocol, but they are not banned under the agreement.
Individual signatory states have the option to ban or restrict their use
as part of their GHG packet reduction. I know some countries restrict
their use to a justified minimum, provided that the users can prove
their need. I don't know of any country that has actually banned them,
but there may be some. A controlled substance under the Protocol means
that each member state has the obligation to submit annually a report yo
UNEP indicating their production/imports/exports/use/destruction of each
class of GHG.
I respectfully suggest you may wish to take a course in organic
chemistry if you believe that there is no carbon in a polyether. Ethers
are hydrocarbon derivative where an oxygen atom separates two carbon
atoms. The simplest perfluoroether is F3C-O-CF3 (hexafluorovinyl ether).
A polyether is an ether which has been polymerised, i.e., has formed a
chain in which there are one or more oxygen atoms within the chain of
carbon atoms. The oxygen does not replace a carbon atom. Perfluorinated
means that every hydrogen atom in the alkane chain has been replaced by
a fluorine atom which is covalently bonded to a carbon atom. If, as you
suggest, there were no carbon atoms in the molecule, it is probable that
its GWP would be zero and it would not be a GHG. Perfluoroethers are
perfluorocarbon derivatives.
Brian
Stadem, Richard D. wrote:
> Vapor Phase fluids are not banned/controlled under Kyoto and are in use in every major market in the world.
>
> Have them contact Solvay Solexis on their Galden line directly. This fluid is an polyether, not a carbon.
>
> Best Regards,
> David Suihkonen
> R&D Technical Services
> [log in to unmask]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
> Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 2:55 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Vapor phase
>
> Bev
>
> Absolutely 1000% certain!
>
> I did not mention the Montreal Protocol, only the Kyoto Protocol.
>
> Let us look at the GWP figures you mention and see what they mean. You quote "2790 to 6230". As the HT fluids are in the higher range, for convenience please allow me to take a hypothetical figure of 5000. This means that, over a 100 year time frame, a given weight of emitted Galden will have 5000 times the effect of the same weight of carbon dioxide.
> IOW, if you lose 5 kg of Galden in a year (quite easy in a heavily used machine, even the sophisticated types, because of vapour entrapment under the components and even condensate entrapment under heavy components like transformers), you will be emitting the equivalent of 25 tonnes of CO2 as a greenhouse gas.
>
> Worse, the manufacturers do not mention the atmospheric residence time, defined as the time for the residual quantity in the atmosphere to reach 1/e (about 37%) of the emitted quantity. This is typically 5,000-20,000 years. Why? Because the F-C bond is mighty strong and is not broken down by hydrolysis in the troposphere or even by photolysis in the stratosphere. I think it will break down by photolysis in the upper mesosphere, but you can imagine the time needed for the molecules to diffuse there, be destroyed and the by-products to homogenise through the atmosphere. Actually, even this is largely theoretical; we do not know the exact mechanisms and we cannot model them accurately. But what it does mean is that the 25 t eq.CO2 is repeated over the next century and the next century after that and the next century after that, for many, many centuries, very slightly diminishing each time. You realise that if your 5 kg emitted in 2008 has an ART of 10,000 years, on the basis
of 4 generations/century, in the 12008, your 97*great-grandchildren will be cursing you because they will still be "benefitting" from the effects of 1.8 kg of Galden you emitted, still equivalent to 9.2 tonnes of CO2.
>
> I agree that these are approximations, because of our lack of precise
> knowledge: we may find there are other decomposition mechanisms or something else happens. With such long-lived substances we are playing the sorcerer's apprentice. One thing I'm afraid of is if elemental fluorine or weakly bonded fluorine diffuses back down from the mesosphere into the stratosphere: it is possible that it could create more ozone depletion, another gift (in German, as well as English!) for your 97*great-grandchildren.
>
> This is why perfluorocarbons, hydrofluorocarbons, their derivatives, and sulfur hexafluoride are specifically mentioned as controlled substances in the Kyoto Protocol. If you look at http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Radiative-forcings.svg,
> you will see the radiative forcing of halocarbons (in yellow) is about
> 0.3 W/mē, against a total of ~1.6 W/mē of the anthropogenic component derived from the positive and negative forcings. (Radiative forcing, in the context of this chart, is the effect of increased energy reaching the earth's surface since 150 years ago due to changes in the chemistry of the atmosphere.) If we stopped emitting halocarbons, which are 99.99% man-made, then our 97*great-grandchildren may curse us less. I should mention that the ART of HFCs, as opposed to PFCs, is generally much shorter, ~5 to ~150 decades. Most of that yellow area is due to PFCs and HFCs, because other halogen-carbon bonds are weaker and there are more rapid breakdown mechanisms with chlorine (photolysis in the ozone layer), bromine (partially photolysis in the ozone layer, partially hydrolysis in the troposphere) and iodine/astatine (mostly hydrolysis in the troposphere). The photolytic breakdown is the cause of ozone depletion. I would not like to see fluorocarbon emissions get any bigger.
>
> Brian
>
> Bev Christian wrote:
>> Brian,
>> Are you sure? From Solvay's own website:
>>
>> "Solvay Solexis offers the Galden(r) PFPE line of lower molecular
>> weight
>> (LMW) fluorinated fluids. Galden fluids are perfluoropolyethers and
>> contain only carbon, fluorine, and oxygen."
>>
>> Last I heard the Montreal Protocol only dealt with
>> chlorofluorocarbons, bromofluorocarbons and some chlorinated solvents.
>> Or is there an addendum that I don't know about? Interesting that in
>> the listed properties, of the two I looked at, there is no GWP value listed.
>>
>> If I Google Galden GWP I get:
>> H Galden HFPEs have a global warming potential (GWP) that varies for
>> the particular fraction, ranging from 2790 to 6230 for the fractions
>> having the highest ...
>> www.epa.gov/EPA-AIR/2003/January/Day-27/a1623.htm - 67k
>>
>> AND
>>
>> They are used as solvents and heat transfer fluids and have zero ODP
>> and low GWP. H-Galden HFPE fluids are linear fluoropolyethers
>> end-capped with a ...
>> www.solvaysolexis.com/products/bybrand/brand/0,,16050-2-0,00.htm -
>> 200k
>> -
>>
>> HMMMM....
>>
>> Bev
>> RIM
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
>> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 11:49 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [TN] Vapor phase
>>
>> Oh! OOOOH! BIG environmental concerns with Galden. GWP in the tens of
>> thousands (CO2 = 1), pretty well on a par with SF6. These PFCs are
>> controlled substances under the Kyoto Protocol.
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> Bill Kasprzak wrote:
>>> Gosh, with all due respect, I'm sure the equipment is using the
>>> Galden
>>> fluid for vapor and that drag out if any is minimal. No environmental
>>> concerns as far as I can tell.
>>>
>>> I think vapor phase will be the comeback kid in the years to come
>> because
>>> of the even distribution of heat. (We do not have any lead-free
>> soldering
>>> issues here)
>>>
>>> What I'm really talking about out is how inconsequential our impact
>>> on
>>> global warming compared to the enormous volcanic eruption in Chile.
>> Some
>>> of the photo's are incredible. Maybe Steve can post them. I think
>>> they
>> are
>>> available from the UK's Daily mail website.
>>>
>>> What's happening right now in Chile is a huge environmental disaster
>> and
>>> no one, no laws, no regulations can do anything about it. It just
>> shows
>>> how inconsequential we really are.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bev Christian <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
>>> 05/12/2008 09:26 AM
>>> Please respond to
>>> TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Please respond to Bev
>>> Christian <[log in to unmask]>
>>>
>>>
>>> To
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>> cc
>>>
>>> Subject
>>> Re: [TN] Vapor phase
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ioan,
>>> Ask the supplier what is the global warming potential of the
>>> materials they are proposing as the thermal transfer material. Then
>>> you have to decide if you can live with the answer.
>>>
>>> Also, RF cans with small holes can be problematic.
>>>
>>> Bev
>>> RIM
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ioan Tempea
>>> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 9:24 AM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: [TN] Vapor phase
>>>
>>> Dear Technos,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would like to get your expert opinion on the latest developments in
>>> the vapour phase technology. The last time this topic has been
>> discussed
>>> here this was still an environmental hazard.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here's the latest sales pitch:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Convection Oven Users:
>>>
>>> With Energy Costs Skyrocketing, You have a cheaper, efficient, and a
>>> better yield Alternative!!
>>>
>>> Low Operating Cost, 110 Volt Machine, Run Lead and Lead Free
>>> Sequentially!!
>>>
>>> High Yield, Run your Lead Free Boards at 230 Degrees Uniform
>> Temperature
>>> Distribution, No Circuit Board Delamination, Uses Environmentally
>>> Friendly Teflon 2 Liquid No Hazardous Florocarbons!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The questions are:
>>>
>>> * Are the advantages real, should I prefer vapour phase over
>>> convection in day by day reflow operations, from the technical point
>> of
>>> view?
>>>
>>> * Would the technology finally be environmentally friendly?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ioan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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