Bev,
Does it mean that if Inge's polishing consumables are soft water based (or their tap water is soft), then it can cause some dissolution of Pb during polishng?
thanks,
Vladimir
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thu May 10 08:11:02 2007
Subject: [TN] NTC Lead, Romans and other interesting stuff
With regards to the Romans here is a little more of the story to add to the lead pipes, glazes and "glassware". Apparently they purposefully added wine to leadware and let it sit to form a sweet tasting lead salt! Certainly lead poisoning would be a minor cause of the fall of the Roman Empire, a pretty complex undertaking, but I would expect that a lot of the lead poisoning, if it did occur to any extent, would be in the ruling aristocracy of the city, who could afford the leadware and not be restricted to cheaper (and probably safer) pottery.
Now to lead pipes and drinking water. I will use the Doug Pauls patented "it depends". It depends on whether the city water is hard or soft. If it is hard, then, sure there is a buildup of scale of the composition mentioned below and the problem is solved. However, this is not necessarily the case in areas with natural soft water and lead plumbing. For instance, from the London (Ontario, Canada) Free Press of May 4, 2007:
"Chief Drinking Water Inspector Jim Smith made the request one week after The Free Press reported many older London homes had levels of lead that failed to meet health standards even after the pipes were flushed out."
There is also something of a controversy in the analytical community because in the US the rules for water testing call for testing the first flow while in Canada the testing is only done after letting the water run to x number of minutes first. Some action groups say the US way to test is better because people are not letting their taps run, contrary to the recommendations of Health Canada.
Bev
RIM
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 4:07 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] SV: [TN] SV: [TN] SV: [TN] Metallurgists, need assistance
Sorry, Vladimir, it's an urban myth. Lead pipes are quite safe for
carrying drinking water, after the initial flush-through, because an
ion-exchange mechanism deposits lime on the pipes' insides. The pipes
are effectively calcium hydroxide/carbonate in contact with the water,
not lead. As Werner said, it was lead glaze on ceramics and lead
glassware that caused the damage.
Brian
Vladimir Igoshev wrote:
> Hi Inge,
>
> It does sounds "weird" (the Pb thing) and I spelled it out :-), BUT Pb is dissolved in water and that was why that ancient idea with water pipes made of Pb didn't work out well for the Romans :-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Vladimir
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hfjord
> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 2:04 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] SV: [TN] SV: [TN] SV: [TN] Metallurgists, need assistance
>
> Dave,
>
> Goofy, agree. No, I have not confirmed the ENIG finish, because my
> client did not send naked boards to me. I will ask for a fresh board so
> that we can check the condition. That's a good thought, to investigate
> the parts before assembly, the board, the solder paste and the FPGAs. My
> client denies there could be anything wrong here, but it can, of course.
> I'll call them tomorrow.
>
> As you could read, one guy pointed out that the voids can be created at
> the polishing process, because of Lead dissolved by the water. Sounds
> goofy too. Suppose that could happen, why don't I get that when
> polishing the good references then. I've seen SnPb cross sections for
> years, but never seen Lead being superseded by voids!
>
> OK, can try oil polishing instead...
>
> Inge
>
> -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
> Från: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] För David D. Hillman
> Skickat: den 9 maj 2007 14:12
> Till: [log in to unmask]
> Ämne: Re: [TN] SV: [TN] SV: [TN] Metallurgists, need assistance
>
> Hi folks! I agree with Vlad - I don't see any "B" word characteristics
> in
> the nickel plating. Looking over the SEM photos, something just looks
> goofy. As Vlad pointed out the voids don't seem to be from a flux
> outgassing root cause - they contain rough, jagged features. Inge - have
>
> you run a SEM EDX analysis to get a chemical ID on the structures inside
>
> the voids? My guess is that the cause of the poor solder joint integrity
>
> is linked to the formation of your strange void structures. I was
> thinking
> maybe gold embrittlement but if you are using ENIG then you don't have
> enough gold present. Have you confirmed that the ENIG finish was
> correct?
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> Vladimir Igoshev <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
> 05/08/2007 08:01 PM
> Please respond to
> TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Please respond to
> Vladimir Igoshev <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> To
> [log in to unmask]
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: [TN] SV: [TN] SV: [TN] Metalurgists, need assistance
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Inge,
>
> The images are nice and clearly prove we won't have to use the "B" word
> any more (at least not in that case).
>
> But I got even more confused :-)
>
> My uneducated guess would be that the first two images were taken in
> the
> backscattered electron topo mode. That would explain why there are
> plenty
> of blubs/hillocks (or whatever one'd prefer to call them) on the
> surface.
> That is how surface CAVITIES (not protrusions) can look like in that
> particular mode.
> It's sort of an optical illusion.
>
> Your other pictures are in the secondary electron mode and here the
> cavities do look like cavities.
>
> If I'm right, then I'd have to understand what those black spots are, as
>
> they don't look like voids (voids woud look like protrusions and I'd
> expect voids to be more rounded).
>
> The interface on the board side looks normal on all images (and from my
> understanding that is the interface you are having the problem with).
>
> I don't see any Ni on the lead side and I don't like how the
> intermetallics looks like there (there is kind of a "demarkation" line
> inside the layer, which might bring up a couple of speculations on is
> origin).
>
> The intermrtallics is most probably (Ni-Cu)/Sn, not Ni/Sn as you have a
> huge source of Cu (cut off lead). It even looks like Ni-Cu/Sn, not
> Ni/Sn.
>
> And now we got down to the most "misterious" part :-) - those cavities
> in
> the surface. I might be wrong, but I think I either heard or read
> somewhere that Pb is etched away during polishing (reaction with water).
>
> That would explain why you see the cavities. To prove (or disprove) my
> point, I'd take pictures from the same areas in backscattedred
> COMPOSITIONAL (not topo) mode.
>
> And after all, I'd love to see how a failed joint look like in
> cross-section (with the lifted lead) :-)
>
> BTW, did you see those Sn spheres? :-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Vladimir
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hfjord
> To: Vladimir Igoshev; 'TechNet E-Mail Forum'
> Sent: Tue May 08 14:44:42 2007
> Subject: SV: [TN] SV: [TN] Metalurgists, need assistance
>
> Vlad & TN gnus,
>
> Hey, curious? I'm still concerned, but at a higher level, as said
> Newton. To begin with, I Xsectioned samples from failed part AND known
> good references. Both finished with 0.1 micron diamond milk. Etched for
> 10 second, 5 seconds, 1 second and no etching at all. Same result: voids
> in the failed parts, absolutely flat with references. I'll send photos
> to Mr Wallman, alias Steve.
>
> Pic new xsections_1 : typical solder joint with void concentrations
> under the lead's foot. Not etched.
>
> Pic new xsections_2 : details from under the lead's foot. Nickel plating
> seen clearly, and a very thin nickel IMC layer. All bright areas are
> predominated by Tin, very little Lead. Black spots are voids that
> contains a little of everything debris from polishing. Not etched.
>
> Pic SEM_3 shows following: from bottom copper pad / solder joint with
> voids / lead with nickel finish. Not etched.
>
> Pic SEM_1 shows upper part of solder joint, with lead copper uppermost.
> Not etched.
>
> Pic SEM_ 2 shows typical solder joint at higher magnification with
> predominating Tin and also little Lead and Copper. Not etched.
>
> As I said earlier, the references show no voids at all like the above.
>
> Preliminary, I have excluded Black pads and Skip plating. Furthermore, I
> don't think there are brittle copper IMCs either, even if there are
> relatively high Cu peaks everywhere. Think Cu peaks come from
> preparation. Nor is it likely with Ni IMCs, they belong to the interface
> parts. So, what is this? Someone mentioned a insufficient soldering
> process, and that is finally what I begin to think too. Against this
> speaks the very experienced and big company that makes these boards (one
> of the big elephants, not Ericsson, not American). On the other hand,
> even the best can fail.
>
> The failure appears randomly around the world, much annoying for the
> customers, and the technicians scratch their heads.
>
> Finally, I remind you all about the fact, that the fractures start close
> to the solder pads and spread to the middle of the solder joints. And
> only on the large FPGAs. No other components are hit.
>
> Inge
>
>
>
> -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
> Från: Vladimir Igoshev [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Skickat: den 8 maj 2007 15:47
> Till: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Hfjord
> Ämne: RE: [TN] SV: [TN] Metalurgists, need assistance
>
> So inge,
>
> What the cross-section looked like? :-)
>
> Vladimir
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hfjord
> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 4:57 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] SV: [TN] Metalurgists, need assistance
>
> Diet Coke! Man! Does not remove black pads on your teeth..
> New samples are ordered, will try both oxides on paper and diamond on
> nylon.
> If the customer pays, I may try even FIB or TOFSIMS. Both are superior,
> and even if the time tax is high, I must say that polishing, and
> repolishing and endlessly repeated polishing can be quite expensive as
> well.
> Inge
>
> -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
> Från: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] För David D. Hillman
> Skickat: den 7 maj 2007 14:23
> Till: [log in to unmask]
> Ämne: Re: [TN] Metalurgists, need assistance
>
> Hi George! Good comments! It does seem that the industry, at times,
> spends
> more time in describing a phenomena rather than resolving the root cause
>
> so that we can avoid a reoccurrence. As for Inge's Monday dilemma, I
> would
> wait and see what the cross-section results reveal. If the observations
> are that the nickel plating grain boundaries look bad, then I would work
>
> with my pwb fabricator on what went wrong in the plating bath. It the
> observations are that the nickel plating grain boundaries look good, I
> would chase either a poor solderability or a poor soldering process root
>
> cause. As you noted, the plating chemistry suppliers have worked
> extremely
> hard on making the ENIG plating process more robust and "real" black pad
>
> problems are less prevalent today. I have always viewed the solution to
> black pad as one of two choices: don't use ENIG or work very closely
> with
> the pwb fabricator. Here is an article reference which I think really
> does the best job to date, of describing the root cause of black pad
> (one
> of the contributors is our good fried Dick Coyle!).
>
> Zeng, Steirman, Abbott, Murtuza, "The Root Cause of Black Pad Failure of
>
> Solder Joints with Electroless Ni/Immersion Gold Plating", JOM, June
> 2006,
> pp. 75-79
>
> The reality for us may be that no amount of plating bath control will
> completely eliminate the potential of having a black pad situation and
> that a risk assessment on a product basis is the final solution. Ouch,
> way
> too much thinking on a Monday before I have had a Diet Coke!
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> "Wenger, George M." <[log in to unmask]>
> 05/04/2007 07:56 PM
>
> To
> "TechNet E-Mail Forum" <[log in to unmask]>, <[log in to unmask]>
> cc
>
> Subject
> RE: [TN] Metalurgists, need assistance
>
>
>
>
>
>
> David,
>
> I hate the "B" word because it describes an optical appearance rather
> than a failure mechanism. I've heard the "B" word as well as terms like
> "weak Nickel" and "Black Line Nickel" used many times to describe ENIG
> failures. The reason I don't like these terms is because they are
> adjectives to describe what one thinks they see and don't describe the
> failure mechanism that causes the brittle interface failures. We use
> ENIG on an old telecommunications legacy product because it wouldn't be
> profitable to do any engineering evaluations to qualify another surface
> finish. However, since the root cause of the ENIG solder joint failure
> mechanism has never been understood or resolved to the point where one
> can turn it on or off, we avoid the use of ENIG surface finish on all
> new products. Even though the suppliers of ENIG chemistry have done a
> great job of monitoring their chemistry and educating board shops on the
> proper controls to reduce the occurrences of brittle solder joint
> failures they haven't been able to eliminate these type of failure.
> Ingemar is one of the few people I know of on TN that not only has a
> great understanding of solder joints but appreciates the process control
> details one needs to follow in PCB fabrication as well as PCBA to avoid
> un-reliable solder joints. His current problem (i.e., not being able to
> understand the failure mechanism or predict when it is going to happen)
> is the major reason we avoid the use of ENIG surface finish.
>
> Let's just say Ingemar does a cross section and confirms that there is
> "mud flat" nickel grain boundary attack, what does he do on Monday?
> Your advice about having a beer because it is Friday and not worrying
> about this until Monday only will help this weekend but come Monday what
> does he do. I assume that he's already using a "good" board shop and a
> "Good" ENIG chemistry. I know what we did and it worked for us but as
> an engineer I'd really like to what the ENIG failure mechanism is and
> how to avoid it.
>
> Regards,
> George
> George M. Wenger
> Andrew Corporation Wireless Network Solutions
> Senior Principal FMA / Reliability Engineer
> 40 Technology Drive, Warren, NJ 07059
> (908) 546-4531 [Office] (732) 309-8964 [Cell]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David D. Hillman
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 4:45 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] Metalurgists, need assistance
>
> Hi folks and thank you Steve for being "TechNet Picture Central"! Sorry
>
> but just to warn everyone but I am going to use the "B" word shortly.
> Inge
> - take a close look at picture 4. As Werner pointed out the gold is
> non-wetting the nickel in number of locations. What really jumped out
> at
> me is that "mud flat" appearance on some of the nickel surface regions -
> a
> "mud flat" appearance is a classic indication of black pad! I recommend
> you complete a cross-section to confirm that you have nickel grain
> boundary attack.
>
> But since it is Friday, go have a beer and worry about this on Monday!
>
> Dave Hillman
> Rockwell Collins
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>
> Steve Gregory <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
> 05/04/2007 01:45 PM
> Please respond to
> TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Please respond to
> Steve Gregory <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> To
> [log in to unmask]
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: [TN] Metalurgists, need assistance
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Inge!
>
> Got your pictures posted. Took me a bit, I was swapping our wave
> solderpot from 63/37 to HMP. Done now. I'm getting quicker, I can do it
> in 20-minutes now. Took me about 45-minutes when I first did it...
>
> Anyways, here's the links:
>
> http://stevezeva.homestead.com/files/Pic1.jpg
> http://stevezeva.homestead.com/files/Pic2.jpg
> http://stevezeva.homestead.com/files/Pic3.jpg
> http://stevezeva.homestead.com/files/Pic4.jpg
> http://stevezeva.homestead.com/files/Pic5.jpg
> http://stevezeva.homestead.com/files/Pic6.jpg
>
> -Steve-
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hfjord
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 12:22 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [TN] Metalurgists, need assistance
>
> Have an issue with (randomly) lifted FPGA leads.
> Pic 1: good joint after pull test
> Pic 2: ditto but high magnification
> Pic 3: "rotten" joint after pull test
> Pic 4: ditto but high magnification
> Pic 5: "rotten" cross section
> Pic 6: ditto but high magnification
>
> 60Sn on ENIG, obviously a brittle region. Suspect Kirkendall voids, but
> the pockets with zillions of Tin spheres (0.1 to 2 um in size) points at
> insufficient peak temperature to make 100% melt and good solidifying. If
> these little balls were Lead, I could understand, but they are Tin!
> Never seen like. Any "quickhead" out there, need fast advice.
>
> Note: Pic 2, you can see the underlying board pad nickel as dark areas.
> An experienced analyst will hopefully recognize. No Phosphorous peaks!
>
> My Friday headache.
>
> Inge
>
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