If you'd bought Toyota, you could have saved the price of the
dome-light...

I switched to Japanese cars a decade ago after twenty years of spinning
wrenches on american vehicles....funny now that I think of it -- I
switched to quality management shortly afterwards...

My last two Toyotas are built in California, and I haven't noticed a
difference as compared to my first Tokyo built boat...for the record,
and that's close to 800K (and counting)between the three...



-----Original Message-----
From: Creswick, Steven [mailto:[log in to unmask]] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 10:12 AM
To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Ian Hanna
Subject: RE: [TN] NTC RoHS compliant laptop with early failure

Ian,

FYI.  I've have a 03 Honda Civic Hybrid 4 dr sedan for almost 4 yrs now.
Have 87K+ miles.  My wife and I average [we work at the same place]
90-100 miles per day [mainly rural two-lane blacktop at 50-60mph with a
few lights and stop signs thrown in for good measure].  Cummulative
mileage [based on fuel in and miles driven] is 48+ mpg.  This includes
multiple long trips and A/C, etc.  [The trip odometer generally
estimates the mileage approx 5% high.].  We put on ~350 miles this past
weekend and obtained 52.6 mpg calculated - and I have another day or two
before I have to fill it up again.

Range on a 13 gal tank is 600-650 miles, and change [probably fumes at
that point].

Have replaced the dome light switch at the driver's door, wiper blades,
a set of tires, and routine oil changes - Nothing else.

The vehicle has a small, high-efficiency internal combustion engine,
with an electric assist.

Vehicle has a starter/generator built into the bell housing area which
provides regenerative braking and an electric boost when called for.
This battery pack [via the starter/generator] re-starts the car after it
shuts down at a traffic light/stop sign, etc.

The boost batteries are nothing more than an overgrown pack of ~100 NiMH
D-cells in series, tucked upright behind the rear seat [in the
trunk/boot space].

I bet that my old 19hp Deutz garden tractor has a larger capacity
battery than does the primary lead acid battery in this car.  The
primary Pb-acid battery is only used to start the vehicle when the
ignition switch is used.  All other times, the starter/generator spins
the engine up to idle before you can even move your foot from the brake
to the gas pedal.

If I were doing a lot of city driving, I would look at the Prius [but it
should have a larger battery capacity to be of more benefit, in my
opinion - Brother-in-law has one.  For highway, Honda's configuration is
better -in my opinion.

When the snow gets deep, we resort to the ol' Chevy Lumina van [at 197K
miles], or the even older Chevy 1/2 ton if it comes over the hood of the
van.

Have only two complaints - No. 1 - It does not handle much more than 4"
of snow [I can take off with my powered parachute in more than that!!!].
Being so light, it has little traction.  No. 2 - Where are the US
automakers in implementing these relatively simple concepts???

There is no extra lead inside ... :-)

Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ian Hanna
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:37 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] NTC RoHS compliant laptop with early failure

A 'lead-free' hybrid -- great, we save 12oz of nice reliable
solder-joint, but gain 300lbs of lead-acid battery?  Not that I'm
opposed to hybrids -- if I could get my Tacoma bio-diesel/electric I'd
be all over that -- but the 'lead-free' bit made me think...

-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 3:21 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] NTC RoHS compliant laptop with early failure

After many, many, many months of waiting, I shall take delivery of a 
hybrid car tomorrow. It is absolutely stuffed with electronics (at the 
last count, believe it or not, 237 microprocessors in it to control 
everything down to the way it responds to how you breathe (almost!). 
Being made in Japan, I imagine that it is all lead-free.

If a laptop with three microprocessors (CPU, GPU and HDDPU) fails after,

say, 24 hours of use, this means that my brand new car should fail after

24*3/237 hours = 18 minutes. That means I cannot make it into any of the

surrounding towns without having to call for help. Now, dare I suggest 
that a car suffers more climatic, vibration and shock extremes than a 
laptop? Hopefully, it will not break down every 15 (or even 30) minutes 
so what's the difference? May I suggest that there are several factors:
- the car is designed for the intended purpose: the laptop is designed 
for minimal cost in a highly competitive market
- the car designers are aware that if the drivers get killed, they 
cannot expect them to replace their car after n years: the laptop 
designer of brand X is not worried if, next time round, he buys brand Y 
because he knows tha the user of Brand Z will buy brand X next time 
round, so the future of brands X, Y and Z are all cyclically assured, 
deaths of the users being unlikely
- cooling of laptops is hairy: fans reduce battery life and their grill 
is often blocked by the clothing on the lap of the unfortunate owner. 
Critical electronics in cars are always positioned where cooling is 
adequate: thermal design is a known factor (in laptops, the cooling fan 
is placed where there is a little space left over, in the hopes that 5% 
of the air may reach hot components, if you are lucky)
- etc.?

If you don't hear from me tomorrow, it may be because I'm waiting at the

side of the road for help during my 40 minute drive back from the
showroom.

Brian

Ian Hanna wrote:
> I went shovel shopping last week -- there were three
> 
> A beautiful resin handled, tempered steel, rolled edges with tack
welds
> and reinforcement at the stress points and seams for $39
> A hardwood handled, hickory, one of similar quality for $29
> And an unpriced chineese model -- inferior wood handle, much more
> roughly shaped, with a wide grain -- stamped steel, no welds, no
> reinforcement...
> 
>  -- did a price check to compare -- it was $6.99 -- if I used a shovel
> every day I would invest, but for digging rocks now and then from my
> road -- I couldn't justify the $20-$30 difference...
> 
>  -- I am ashamed, but that is the current reality
> 
> I fear soon there will be less shovel selection, I am a more
discerning
> shopper than most, and a professional 'quality guy'  and still --
price
> influences me
> 
> Ian
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bev Christian
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:53 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] RoHS compliant laptop with early failure
> 
> George,
> As usual, I am in total agreement with you.
> Bev
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wenger, George M. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:51 AM
> To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Bev Christian
> Subject: RE: [TN] RoHS compliant laptop with early failure
> 
> Bev,
> 
> To add to your comment, I'm more convinced than ever that "quality is
> dead".  Given three factors 1). Quality, 2). Cost  3).  Delivery.
> Customers can choose any two but not three.  Even companies like my
old
> company (Lucent Technologies / Bell Laboratories) that changed from
> being technology driven to supply change driven are now more worried
> about cost and delivery.  They may still be concerned about quality
but
> when their customers want the products "NOW" and they want them for
"AS
> CHEAP AS POSSIBLE" then quality has to suffer. 
> 
> 
> Regards, 
> George 
> George M. Wenger 
> Senior Principle FMA / Reliability Engineer 
> Wireless network Solutions 
> Andrew Corporation, 40 Technology Drive, Warren, NJ 07059 (908)
546-4531
> [log in to unmask] 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bev Christian
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:34 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] RoHS compliant laptop with early failure
> 
> A man I respect in the industry on these matters said (and this
applies
> to more than electronics), that "quality is dead".  Remember the
mantra
> is "smaller, cheaper, faster" or some such.  In the late nineties they
> said "quality is of course assumed", but I think that has gone out the
> window now, in the general sense.
> Bev
> RIM
> 
> The opinions expressed herein are my own and do not necessarily
> represent those of the company that I work for. (And I am making no
> inferences one way or the other about our own products.)
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Wolfe, Robert
> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:27 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] RoHS compliant laptop with early failure
> 
> Joe,
> Just a thought without any real data (but sure has me wondering
> slightly).
> EVERY single piece of electronic equipment I've purchased within the
> last year has either failed almost out of the box or soon after.
> This includes 2 notebook computers, a PA Amp, 3 cell phones, a
wireless
> phone, an all-in-one printer.
> Now yes like many have stated here with out data there is no case and
> there are many reasons that could be the problem, and may not have
> anything to do with RoHS.
> But from a John Q. Public buyer standpoint was I jinxed this last year
> were the odds not all in my favor, could be but certainly has me
> wondering why 100% of what I bought electronically never had problems
> till this past year everything had a problem (100%)??? 
>>From my point of view I was starting to think maybe don't buy any
> electronics for awhile?
> Especially since the practice of many companies is, even if your unit
> failed in only 3 months, you might get a refurbished unit that is much
> older back.
> Yes they guarantee it is in perfect working order again, but just my
> opinion, if the unit breaks in the first 90 days you should get a
brand
> new replacement. 
> Bob
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Hudson
> Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 1:02 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] RoHS compliant laptop with early failure
> 
> I would suggest that it belies your undoubted professional expertise
to
> make the assumption that this failure has anything to do with
> RoHS-compliance or lead-free. Frankly, it smacks of hysteria. Surely
you
> can think of at least a dozen other potential failure modes, all
equally
> likely? Let's see some evidence in this case before you throw your
toys
> out of the playpen.
> 
> Dave

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