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Subject:
From:
"Stadem, Richard D." <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>, Stadem, Richard D.
Date:
Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:25:54 -0500
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text/plain
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text/plain (303 lines)
Right, John.
And....I didn't say we DIDN'T build them, either, did I? ;-) 

-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Burke
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 3:36 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Delamination

I know..............I am building them as we speak..............8-)

John

-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dwight Mattix
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 12:36 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Delamination

At 11:47 AM 9/13/2006, Stadem, Richard D. wrote:
>I did not say GD built these types of costly boards. I simply stated 
>that many companies are.

yes.  for example, assembled chip emulators can be very expensive.
start tallying up the cost of large FPGA's at upwards of $5K per device
and it's easy to get an assembly value way up in 5 figure$.  most
recently involved with one that has 19 FPGA's per card (>1750 pins per
device on 1mm pitch).  cha ching!

>-----Original Message-----
>From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Burke
>Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 12:54 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] Delamination
>
>50K..........??
>
>With a component BOM I hope....................
>
>If it's 50K without, you might as well machine each one out of
>solid...............8-)
>
>John
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Franklin D Asbell
>Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:25 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] Delamination
>
>Richard,
>
>MIL-P[RF]-55110/50884/31032 documents clearly state "no repair", of 
>course if these are military product built to IPC-6010 series then 
>repair may be performed I agree repair is allowed.
>
>Many OEMs such as Raytheon, LMCO, Boeing, provide PCB suppliers with 
>PCB Fabrication or Acceptance Specifications which state the same (no 
>repair, or repair with prior communication), I've reviewed many of 
>these and have had to comply with these requirements.
>
>I don't disagree that there are many OEMs which would accept this 
>particular repair (repaired delamination) But in my experience over the

>past 10 years I've not seen one of my customers even consider 
>discussing repairing delaminated product, and as mentioned, today I 
>would not even entertain the idea of asking them.
>
>Did you say you're building PCB's costing $50,000.00...wow, I'm 
>impressed, I'm now interested in the design you're building? What 
>material type, layer count, features, etc. If it does not violate any 
>proprietary of NDA of course.
>
>Franklin
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Stadem, Richard D. [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:49 AM
>To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Franklin D Asbell
>Subject: RE: [TN] Delamination
>
>Wrong, Franklin.
>
>Nearly all medical, industrial, aerospace, military, and government 
>agencies recognize that qualified repair processes, including for 
>delamination, are perfectly reliable, in most cases even more reliable 
>than the original undamaged hardware. There is no more risk in 
>performing a certified repair procedure than there is in doing standard

>rework.
>That is the reason MRB boards exist in large military OEMs and CEMs 
>such as Honeywell, Rockwell, GD, etc., etc., with documented, 
>qualified, and certified repair procedures, non-conforming material 
>segregation and handling methods, trained and certified operators and 
>inspectors, traceability systems, and quality departments.
>Many of these companies recognize the incidential value in these 
>systems, including the impact of not having to delay a program, 
>re-order new parts, re-inspect new parts and boards, re-stock 
>replacement parts and boards, re-assemble replacement assemblies,
re-test, etc, etc.
>Simply scrapping a board because it is delaminated may be acceptable 
>for your product, but many programs cannot afford to scrap a single 
>bare pwb valued at $50,000 for example, let alone a finished assembly 
>valued at more than $500,000 because it has a delamination or other 
>repairable defect. And yes, pwbs and assemblies with those values are 
>becoming somewhat common in the industry today, what with the rapidly 
>escalating level of technology.
>And in most cases, by the time you add up the cost of all of the above 
>replacement activity, the real hidden cost of scrap becomes a factor in

>even the least costly commercial, high-volume products.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Franklin D Asbell
>Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:23 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] Delamination
>
>I'm curious what customers would actually accept repaired delaminated 
>product.
>
>I read repair procedures for delaminated conditions many years ago and 
>in my opinion the end result presents many reliability possibilities.
>
>When I see delamination, I see scrap.
>
>Franklin
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stadem, Richard D.
>Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 1:22 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] Delamination
>
>Helena, I forgot to mention that many delaminations are quite 
>repairable.
>There are repair procedures outlined in IPC-STD-7711/7721.
>They are not automatic scrap. This requires MRB authority from your 
>customer, however.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Pasquito, Helena
>Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 11:45 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: [TN] Delamination
>
>Hi TechNetters,
>
>Let me ask a question; I know delamination is bad, but why?  What is 
>the failure mode to the board when a board delaminates and would there 
>ever be an instance that a board that delaminates is still OK to use?  
>This is a Class 3 application.  Yes, I know what the IPC standards say 
>but not real sure about the board process.  Yes, I "googled" and there 
>is a lot of stuff out there.  Maybe someone can recommend some reading 
>material (hopefully short and sweet and to the point).
>
>Thanks!
>Helena
>
>Helena Pasquito
>Manufacturing Skills Instructor
>M/A-COM, Tyco Electronics
>1011 Pawtucket Blvd., M/S 107
>Lowell, MA 01853
>978-442-5024
>[log in to unmask]
>
>
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