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Subject:
From:
Dwight Mattix <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>, Dwight Mattix <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Wed, 13 Sep 2006 12:35:32 -0700
Content-Type:
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text/plain (240 lines)
At 11:47 AM 9/13/2006, Stadem, Richard D. wrote:
>I did not say GD built these types of costly boards. I simply stated
>that many companies are.

yes.  for example, assembled chip emulators can be very expensive.  start
tallying up the cost of large FPGA's at upwards of $5K per device and it's
easy to get an assembly value way up in 5 figure$.  most recently involved
with one that has 19 FPGA's per card (>1750 pins per device on 1mm
pitch).  cha ching!

>-----Original Message-----
>From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Burke
>Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 12:54 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] Delamination
>
>50K..........??
>
>With a component BOM I hope....................
>
>If it's 50K without, you might as well machine each one out of
>solid...............8-)
>
>John
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Franklin D Asbell
>Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:25 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] Delamination
>
>Richard,
>
>MIL-P[RF]-55110/50884/31032 documents clearly state "no repair", of
>course if these are military product built to IPC-6010 series then
>repair may be performed I agree repair is allowed.
>
>Many OEMs such as Raytheon, LMCO, Boeing, provide PCB suppliers with PCB
>Fabrication or Acceptance Specifications which state the same (no
>repair, or repair with prior communication), I've reviewed many of these
>and have had to comply with these requirements.
>
>I don't disagree that there are many OEMs which would accept this
>particular repair (repaired delamination) But in my experience over the
>past 10 years I've not seen one of my customers even consider discussing
>repairing delaminated product, and as mentioned, today I would not even
>entertain the idea of asking them.
>
>Did you say you're building PCB's costing $50,000.00...wow, I'm
>impressed, I'm now interested in the design you're building? What
>material type, layer count, features, etc. If it does not violate any
>proprietary of NDA of course.
>
>Franklin
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Stadem, Richard D. [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:49 AM
>To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Franklin D Asbell
>Subject: RE: [TN] Delamination
>
>Wrong, Franklin.
>
>Nearly all medical, industrial, aerospace, military, and government
>agencies recognize that qualified repair processes, including for
>delamination, are perfectly reliable, in most cases even more reliable
>than the original undamaged hardware. There is no more risk in
>performing a certified repair procedure than there is in doing standard
>rework.
>That is the reason MRB boards exist in large military OEMs and CEMs such
>as Honeywell, Rockwell, GD, etc., etc., with documented, qualified, and
>certified repair procedures, non-conforming material segregation and
>handling methods, trained and certified operators and inspectors,
>traceability systems, and quality departments.
>Many of these companies recognize the incidential value in these
>systems, including the impact of not having to delay a program, re-order
>new parts, re-inspect new parts and boards, re-stock replacement parts
>and boards, re-assemble replacement assemblies, re-test, etc, etc.
>Simply scrapping a board because it is delaminated may be acceptable for
>your product, but many programs cannot afford to scrap a single bare pwb
>valued at $50,000 for example, let alone a finished assembly valued at
>more than $500,000 because it has a delamination or other repairable
>defect. And yes, pwbs and assemblies with those values are becoming
>somewhat common in the industry today, what with the rapidly escalating
>level of technology.
>And in most cases, by the time you add up the cost of all of the above
>replacement activity, the real hidden cost of scrap becomes a factor in
>even the least costly commercial, high-volume products.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Franklin D Asbell
>Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:23 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] Delamination
>
>I'm curious what customers would actually accept repaired delaminated
>product.
>
>I read repair procedures for delaminated conditions many years ago and
>in my opinion the end result presents many reliability possibilities.
>
>When I see delamination, I see scrap.
>
>Franklin
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stadem, Richard D.
>Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 1:22 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] Delamination
>
>Helena, I forgot to mention that many delaminations are quite
>repairable.
>There are repair procedures outlined in IPC-STD-7711/7721.
>They are not automatic scrap. This requires MRB authority from your
>customer, however.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Pasquito, Helena
>Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 11:45 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: [TN] Delamination
>
>Hi TechNetters,
>
>Let me ask a question; I know delamination is bad, but why?  What is the
>failure mode to the board when a board delaminates and would there ever
>be an instance that a board that delaminates is still OK to use?  This
>is a Class 3 application.  Yes, I know what the IPC standards say but
>not real sure about the board process.  Yes, I "googled" and there is a
>lot of stuff out there.  Maybe someone can recommend some reading
>material (hopefully short and sweet and to the point).
>
>Thanks!
>Helena
>
>Helena Pasquito
>Manufacturing Skills Instructor
>M/A-COM, Tyco Electronics
>1011 Pawtucket Blvd., M/S 107
>Lowell, MA 01853
>978-442-5024
>[log in to unmask]
>
>
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