Referring to Nelco's web data:
Tg for 13 is higher than 6, T260 is 30+ minutes versus 4-8minutes for 6.
CTE for 13 is lower than 6 in the same conditions.
Moisture absorption similar.
Peel strength for 6 is 1.58N/mm and 13 is 1.31N/mm (IPC-TM-650.2.4.8).
Now how is peel strength really quoted? Are we really comparing peel strength with the same grade of copper foil (surface
treatments and roughness)? Is this the same foil that actually comes delivered with cores, or is a manufacturer free to choice
particular foils for measurement ?
The reason for asking this question is that 13 or 13SI is specifically targeted at low applications and presumably comes
normally delivered with low profile foils. Perhaps the test method should stipulate 2 differing test, first with a standard foil
grade for comparison and secondly with the explicit foil that the core would be delivered with.
Best Regards
David Greig
______________________________
GigaDyne Ltd
Buchan House
Carnegie Campus
Dunfermline KY11 8PL
United Kingdom
t: +44 (0)1383 624 975
www.gigadyne.co.uk
______________________________
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Donald Kyle
Sent: 01 March 2006 13:47
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] High-frequency losses (e.g., SATA)
All;
Sounds like N4000-6 and N4000-13 are not suitable for a LF assembly processes. Is that what I am hearing?
According to Nelco’s web site, the N4000-13* materials are LF assembly compatible.
Their Tg is 210C. The N4000-6 is not LF compatible and has a Tg of 175C.
There’s more of course to it than just the Tg.
I have seen delamination problems with N4000-6 as well as N4000-13.
According to Nelco, the N4000-12* materials are LF assembly compatible as well. The Tg for this material is 190C.
Has anyone tested N4000-12 with a LF process and then temperature cycled it?
Donald
At 04:32 PM 2/28/2006, you wrote:
>John,
>
>Do you have fact about it?
>
>I'm asking because I'm working on a design which has 3.125 GHz signals
>on it and I'm looking for Nelco 4000-13.
>
>If I can avoid problem of delamination during the lead free assembly
>process and get rid of another simulation pass and rework because of
>change in material, it will be appreciated.
>
>
>Louis Guérin, C.I.D.+
>
>Conception de Plaquette de Circuit Imprimé| PCB Designer
>
>Lyrtech RD inc.
>( Téléphone - International/Phone - Worldwide: 1 (418) 877-4644 # 242
>( Sans frais - Canada et É.-U./Toll-free - Canada and USA: 1 (888)
>922-4644 # 242
>1 Téléc./Fax: 1 (418) 877-7710
>
> Infinite possibilities...TM
>
>
>-----Message d'origine-----
>De : TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] De la part de John Burke Envoyé :
>28 février 2006 14:01 À : [log in to unmask] Objet : Re: [TN]
>High-frequency losses (e.g., SATA)
>
>Agreed,
>
>One thing though, if you are using lead free soldering temperatures
>Nelco - 12 works fine, Nelco - 13 does not work at all.
>
>John
>
>John Burke
>Senior Manager - Operations , Optichron [log in to unmask]
>W: 510 249 5233
>M: 408 515 4992
>http://www.optichron.com
>Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/e/fps/2665502/
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dwight Mattix
>Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 10:09 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] High-frequency losses (e.g., SATA)
>
>Have a look at FR408. It's more like N4000-12 electrically. However,
>both
>FR408 and -12 have been close enough to -13 electrical performance to
>drop in as replacements in our sub-2GHz applications. Both FR408 and
>-12 have similar innerlaminar bond strength as N4000-6. That is nearly
>double the inner laminar bond strength of -13. Equally important in
>multi-lam single ply uVia build up constructions has been -12 and
>FR408's (apparently) lower delam sensitivity to retained moisture. -13
>is not very hydroscopic but it will separate from it's glass sooner
>than 408, -6 or -12 if there is retained moisture.
>
>We've used a ton of -13 over the years and still use it in selected
>applications for it's higher Tg and marginally lower loss but if it's
>single ply and sequential lam FR408 or -12 are the way to go.
>
>my $.02,
>dw
>
>At 10:21 PM 2/27/2006, Ofer Cohen wrote:
> >In similar occasion of similar frequency (3.125GB/s) we've declined
> >IS410 and other, and approved IS620 and Nelco 4000-13. We are
> >checking no Nelco 4000-12 which is supposed to be electrically
> >equivalent to the
> >-13 but chipper and LF compliant.
> >
> >Regards
> >Ofer Cohen
> >Manager - Quality Assurance and Reliability SIEMENS COM FN A SB
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Dunn
> >Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 22:40
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: [TN] High-frequency losses (e.g., SATA)
> >
> >Hello from a new member.
> >
> >We're wanting to run 1.5Gbps (differential) SATA signals over a
> >backplane, and naturally have SI concerns. The distance will be up
> >to 15". We're considering IS410 and IS620 (620 has about 2.5x less loss).
> >
> >I've tried using calculators from Rogers and Isola, but for some
>reason,
> >they only report losses in single-ended lines.
> >
> >Can anyone share experiences, or suggest other tools that may be of
>use?
> >
> >
> >Thanks!!!
> >
> >
> >
> >Michael Dunn
> >Sr. Hardware Engineer
> >Kaleidescape Canada Inc.
> >611 Kumpf Drive, Unit 100
> >Waterloo, ON N2V 1K8
> >Canada
> >Ph: 519-772-6427
> >Fx: 519-772-6401
> >
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