Ya'll are fixating on adhesive failures. Don't overlook cohesive failures
as a source of delam.
Delam is not just a question of copper peel strength. Inner laminar bond
strength is also a key attribute (esp, in the case of -13 resin system).
dw
At 06:44 AM 3/1/2006, David Greig wrote:
>Pads peeling off sounds like the bad old days of RCC!
>
>13 and 13SI does take more press time. One other thought, for inner layers
>where the copper comes from the cores, might be
>harder to treat copper (better grades) in terms of oxidation or what ever
>other treatments a fabricator is using prior to
>lamination.
>
>I've had good -13 boards made, but have always speced the grade of outer
>foils to be used. On these, the outer layers were only
>used for low speed signals and something to stick the parts down onto, so
>I could use rough foils. Some of the fabs I use
>actually like -13 prepreg for the flow characteristics.
>
>Best Regards
>
>David Greig
>______________________________
>GigaDyne Ltd
>Buchan House
>Carnegie Campus
>Dunfermline KY11 8PL
>United Kingdom
>t: +44 (0)1383 624 975
>www.gigadyne.co.uk
>______________________________
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stadem, Richard D.
>Sent: 01 March 2006 14:24
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] High-frequency losses (e.g., SATA)
>
>Don,
>You are indeed correct in stating that the material properties have only a
>little to do with delamination.
>A material with a high Tg and Td simply means that the materials
>themselves will stand up a little better in higher Pb-free
>reflow temperatures. The suppliers of the prepreg still need to do a good
>job of lamination, or it does not really matter if the
>materials themselves have better capabilities. Some very good postings on
>this subject from Susan Mansilla and Werner
>Engelmaier, amongst others, were posted here within the last two months.
>The N4000-6 and -13 have been delaminating at several of my clients at
>NORMAL (read 210-235 C.) reflow temperatures, and in
>addition have proven to have very poor pad retention. I do not know enough
>about board fabrication to determine why that is, I
>can only report what I see happening. It has not been isolated to a single
>board fabricator or prepreg supplier.
>In addition, during normal BGA rework, the pads without trace attachments
>literally slide off of the boards when the BGA is
>removed. We could not do anything to the process to prevent it.
>These boards were baked to remove moisture. Did not make any difference,
>they still delaminated when passed through the reflow
>at 200 deg. C.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Donald Kyle
>Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 7:47 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] High-frequency losses (e.g., SATA)
>
>All;
>Sounds like N4000-6 and N4000-13 are not suitable for a LF assembly
>processes. Is that what I am hearing?
>
>According to Nelco's web site, the N4000-13* materials are LF assembly
>compatible.
>Their Tg is 210C. The N4000-6 is not LF compatible and has a Tg of 175C.
>
>There's more of course to it than just the Tg.
>
>I have seen delamination problems with N4000-6 as well as N4000-13.
>
>According to Nelco, the N4000-12* materials are LF assembly compatible as
>well. The Tg for this material is 190C.
>
>Has anyone tested N4000-12 with a LF process and then temperature cycled it?
>
>Donald
>
>
>
>
>At 04:32 PM 2/28/2006, you wrote:
> >John,
> >
> >Do you have fact about it?
> >
> >I'm asking because I'm working on a design which has 3.125 GHz signals
> >on it and I'm looking for Nelco 4000-13.
> >
> >If I can avoid problem of delamination during the lead free assembly
> >process and get rid of another simulation pass and rework because of
> >change in material, it will be appreciated.
> >
> >
> >Louis Guérin, C.I.D.+
> >
> >Conception de Plaquette de Circuit Imprimé| PCB Designer
> >
> >Lyrtech RD inc.
> >( Téléphone - International/Phone - Worldwide: 1 (418) 877-4644 # 242
> >( Sans frais - Canada et É.-U./Toll-free - Canada and USA: 1 (888)
> >922-4644 # 242
> >1 Téléc./Fax: 1 (418) 877-7710
> >
> > Infinite possibilities...TM
> >
> >
> >-----Message d'origine-----
> >De : TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] De la part de John Burke Envoyé :
> >28 février 2006 14:01 À : [log in to unmask] Objet : Re: [TN]
> >High-frequency losses (e.g., SATA)
> >
> >Agreed,
> >
> >One thing though, if you are using lead free soldering temperatures
> >Nelco - 12 works fine, Nelco - 13 does not work at all.
> >
> >John
> >
> >John Burke
> >Senior Manager - Operations , Optichron [log in to unmask]
> >W: 510 249 5233
> >M: 408 515 4992
> >http://www.optichron.com
> >Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/e/fps/2665502/
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dwight Mattix
> >Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 10:09 AM
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: [TN] High-frequency losses (e.g., SATA)
> >
> >Have a look at FR408. It's more like N4000-12 electrically. However,
> >both
> >FR408 and -12 have been close enough to -13 electrical performance to
> >drop in as replacements in our sub-2GHz applications. Both FR408 and
> >-12 have similar innerlaminar bond strength as N4000-6. That is nearly
> >double the inner laminar bond strength of -13. Equally important in
> >multi-lam single ply uVia build up constructions has been -12 and
> >FR408's (apparently) lower delam sensitivity to retained moisture. -13
> >is not very hydroscopic but it will separate from it's glass sooner
> >than 408, -6 or -12 if there is retained moisture.
> >
> >We've used a ton of -13 over the years and still use it in selected
> >applications for it's higher Tg and marginally lower loss but if it's
> >single ply and sequential lam FR408 or -12 are the way to go.
> >
> >my $.02,
> >dw
> >
> >At 10:21 PM 2/27/2006, Ofer Cohen wrote:
> > >In similar occasion of similar frequency (3.125GB/s) we've declined
> > >IS410 and other, and approved IS620 and Nelco 4000-13. We are
> > >checking no Nelco 4000-12 which is supposed to be electrically
> > >equivalent to the
> > >-13 but chipper and LF compliant.
> > >
> > >Regards
> > >Ofer Cohen
> > >Manager - Quality Assurance and Reliability SIEMENS COM FN A SB
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Dunn
> > >Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 22:40
> > >To: [log in to unmask]
> > >Subject: [TN] High-frequency losses (e.g., SATA)
> > >
> > >Hello from a new member.
> > >
> > >We're wanting to run 1.5Gbps (differential) SATA signals over a
> > >backplane, and naturally have SI concerns. The distance will be up
> > >to 15". We're considering IS410 and IS620 (620 has about 2.5x less loss).
> > >
> > >I've tried using calculators from Rogers and Isola, but for some
> >reason,
> > >they only report losses in single-ended lines.
> > >
> > >Can anyone share experiences, or suggest other tools that may be of
> >use?
> > >
> > >
> > >Thanks!!!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Michael Dunn
> > >Sr. Hardware Engineer
> > >Kaleidescape Canada Inc.
> > >611 Kumpf Drive, Unit 100
> > >Waterloo, ON N2V 1K8
> > >Canada
> > >Ph: 519-772-6427
> > >Fx: 519-772-6401
> > >
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>
>Donald Kyle C.I.D.+
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