I don't pay too much attention to news items in the mainstream press,
primarily because they so seldom get their facts right.
Why not look at the NASA press release on which the MSNBC article was
based? That can be found at
 http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2006/mar/HQ_06089_polar_ice_sheets_melting.html

Note that the NASA press release says "The ice sheets had a major net
loss of ice due to outflow from West Antarctica. These losses, which may
have been going on for decades, outweighed the gains in snow and ice
seen in the East Antarctic ice sheet ..."   If this phenomenon has been
going on for decades then something even earlier than that would be the
cause. That would be before any predicted impact from human CO2 emissions.

Also, someone please point me to the part in the Press Release where
they claim it is due to anthropogenic warming.

See an Oct. 2001 report from the very same NASA/Goddard Space Flight
Center where they discussed  thinning ice from as early as 1979.
 http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/topstory/20011001icepuzzle.html
See also http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/topstory/20020820southseaice.html

Note that the press release also states that both in Anarctica AND in
Greenland there are areas where the ice is increasing. So it is not as
if the glaciers and ice are going to totally disappear.

And they even admit that they don't have all the answers. They say "
"The study indicates that the contribution of the ice sheets to
sea-level rise during the decade studied was much smaller than expected,
just two percent of the recent increase of nearly three millimeters
(0.12 inches) a year," Zwally said. "Current estimates of the other
major sources of sea-level rise - expansion of the ocean by warming
temperatures and runoff from low-latitude glaciers - do not make up the
difference, so we have a mystery on our hands as to where the water is
coming from. Continuing research using NASA satellites and other data
will narrow the uncertainties in this important issue and help solve the
mystery."

I also recall another story about melting ice caps due to global
warming. Go to
http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/astro/2001-12-07-mars-melting-icecap.htm
(or
http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/physics_astronomy/report-6484.html)
to find a story on the melting of Mars' polar "ice" caps due to global
warming.

Finally, one ought to read the article published in the Journal of
Glaciology (www.igsoc.org/news/pressreleases/Zwally509.pdf )
It has some interesting things to say.
1) this study only covers the period from 1992 to 2002. This is a mere
snapshot and does not tell us what the conditions were like prior to
1992. For all we know the conditions observed may be "normal".
2) there is a "near balance" in Greenland - in other words as much ice
is being added as is being lost.
3) the "overall net mass changes are small".

Does anyone on his forum think that Miguel Llanos, the person who wrote
the MSNBC article, actually read the Journal of Glaciology report or did
he just read the NASA press release and pick and choose the bits he
wanted in order to make a political point?

Chuck Dolci


Brian Epstein wrote:

>NASA puts its weight behind warming signs:
>
>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11745704/
>
>Regards,
>Brian Epstein
>Sr Regulatory Compliance Engineer
>Veeco Instruments
>[log in to unmask]
>ph (805) 967-2700 ext 2315
>ce (805) 591-9587
>fx (805) 967-7717
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: EnviroNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Charles Dolci
>Sent: Tuesday 07 March 2006 12:02 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [EN] North Pole Meets South Pole: Earth Is Melting at Both
>Ends
>
>Brian Epstein wrote:
>
>"...  What the phenomenon being reported, however, is the melting of
>Greenland ice, which is indeed taking place at a rate and to an extent
>never before recorded."
>
>Maybe that is because it had never been recorded before.
>I had done some research on this in the past
>
>Maybe that is because it had never been recorded before. I recall doing
>some research on this subject before and posting it to this forum.
>
>A review of Denmark's official websites brings up very little on
>Greenland - but I did find
>http://www.dmu.dk/1_Viden/2_Miljoe-tilstand/3_natur/biobasis/index.htm
>It states:
>    "Climate change modellers agree that polar regions are particularly
>exposed to global warming.  At the same time, the ecosystems in these
>regions are highly sensitive to climate change.  Therefore, some of the
>earliest and most pronounced effects of global warming are expected in
>the Arctic.
>     Despite this, only very few long-term studies on the dynamics of
>Arctic ecosystems exist, and no such studies took place in Greenland
>until Zackenberg Ecological Research Operations (ZERO) started in
>central Northeast Greenland in 1995.
>     BioBasis, the biological monitoring programme within ZERO, is run
>by the National Environmental Research Institute and financed by the
>Environmental Protection Agency under the Ministry of Environment and
>Energy, Denmark.  The goal of BioBasis is to monitor the dynamics of a
>large variety of organisms and biological processes in the local
>ecosystem."
>
>Note that they talk in terms of anticipated conditions (i.e. "are
>expected"), they are not talking about current conditions.  And research
>has only just begun, so how can any conclusions be drawn without data?
>(What a silly question!)  If the ice cap was melting I think there would
>be some statement to that effect.
>
>Continuing my search of Danish government websites I find "Change in
>Arctic Marine Production"
>( http://www.dmu.dk/lakeandestuarineecology/camp/ ).  They likewise talk
>of expectations:
>"Global warming is expected to affect the rate of ice-melting and
>thereby light availability in polar regions.  Investigations concerning
>the responses of production, consumption, and degradation in Arctic
>coastal marine ecosystems to future changes in temperature and sea
>ice-cover will be carried out.  The aim is to study the regulation of
>primary production, and the effects of alterations in primary production
>on secondary production and bacterial recycling of nutrients.  This will
>be accomplished through detailed laboratory and field studies of primary
>and secondary producers and sediment processes in Young Sound, Northeast
>Greenland.  The project is being effected as a collaboration between
>several scientific institutions and is expected to add new knowledge of
>the mechanisms regulating production and consumption in Arctic marine
>areas, and to provide an extensive data-set for use as reference in the
>future."
>
> From that same Danish report:
>
>"Studies of world-wide temperature records compiled over the last 100
>years have revealed an average global temperature increase of 0.6C
>(Hansen & Lebedeff 1988).  Coupled ocean-atmosphere models predict that
>global warming will cause a further temperature increase of several C
>over the next 50-500 years.  This temperature increase is predicted to
>be most pronounced in the Arctic, where it is modelled to be
>approximately twice the global average (Hansen et al.  1988, Manabe &
>Stouffer 1994).  Even a warming up of 1-2C is expected to cause dramatic
>reduction and thinning of Arctic ice in summer (Manabe et al.  1992,
>Barry et al.  1993).
>
>Studies of detailed satellite records have indicated a shortening of the
>sea-ice season, especially in the Sea of Okhotsk, the Eastern Arctic
>Ocean, the Barents Sea, and off the north coast of Russia and the east
>coast of Greenland (Gloersen & Campbell 1991, Gloersen et al.  1992,
>Parkinson 1992, NASA 1996).  However, it has been suggested that an
>increase of global temperature and a resultant increase in ice-melt may
>serve to freshen the surface waters of the convective gyres of the
>Greenland and Iceland seas, to a degree that cooling even to the
>freezing-point is insufficient to initiate convection (Aagaard & Carmack
>1989).  This may cause the global thermohaline transport to alter, and
>reduce the transport of warm water to the North Atlantic region,
>resulting in a local cooling of the area and a subsequent increase in
>ice-cover (Hkkinen 1993; Rahmstorf 1995; Rahmstorf 1997).  Furthermore,
>analyses of two ice cores drilled in central Greenland (Johnsen et al.
>1992, Taylor et al.  1993, Dansgaard et al.  1993) and of deep-sea cores
>(Bond et al.  1993) have revealed large, abrupt climatic changes of at
>least regional extent during the last glaciation, suggesting that the
>climate in the North Atlantic region can alter rapidly, perhaps even
>within few decades."
>
>Note again "models predict", " increase predicted to be", "modelled to
>be", "expected to cause", etc.  But they also say that it could result
>in more ice, not less.  They aslo spoke of "sastellite records"  - and
>just how long have satellite records been available?  The data from just
>a few years ago showed that they had only just started to study the
>glaciers in Greenland, so how can they now be making statements (by the
>way, who exactly is making these statements) about historic trends?
>
>Brian may be right in that "the melting of Greenland ice, which is
>indeed taking place at a rate and to an extent never before recorded."
> But that does not mean that it is to an extent never before occurring.
>
>Chuck Dolci
>
>
>