Bill,
I admire your efforts and have often thought of teaching myself. There are few colleges out there that even teach PCB Design...that's a problem for all of our futures! Too much of our work is being outsourced to outside countries, we all know that's a problem...I believe the solution lies in training...we need more training here in the USA. I don't live in a rural area, I'm in the Chicago area and can't find a college that teaches any part of PCB design, from beginner level to advanced. Advanced training is available thru seminars and workshops, but generally you have to travel to get there and you're lucky if a company will pay the expenses. If anyone knows of any teaching opportunities available here in the Chicago area, I would be interested in helping out.
Thanks,
Kitty
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brooks,Bill
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 9:56 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] Design Software to use as a teaching tool???
I believe Mentor Expedition was really chosen at Palomar in the fall of 2003
because it was a 'magnet' tool and was assumed by us all to be user
friendly. It drew many students to the class. Historically they had been
using PADS in the class before that and the only criticism I had of that
class was it required them to spend a lot of time on the tool and I thought
there needed to be more focus on design principles and methods. Plus
enrollment was lagging and this breathed new life into the program.
Better than 50% of the students in the class with the Mentor Expedition tool
had more than 25 years experience in the PCB design field. They didn't need
much in the way of basic training you know... They just wanted to learn the
Expedition tool and we let them. The remaining students were 'newbies' who
really needed the class. Some of the more experienced designers helped tutor
the newbies as well. It was an exciting thing to participate in and the
students enjoyed the class.
It was a good opportunity for the experienced designers and we thought the
beginners would catch on and many of them did as I split my time more
towards the newbies than the experienced designers. Some students had a
harder time and found every way possible to break the tool or cause it to
hang...(beginner's luck), some dropped from the class but others of them
stuck it out. The AE from Mentor even arranged and offered them a time
restricted license of Expedition so they could use at home to study more
with to help them understand the tool better. Everyone struggled with it
somewhat and groaned a lot. One of our 30+ years experienced students even
took an on-line course from Mentor to get better with the tool, it's quite
probably the most complex tool I have used from the standpoint of its need
to have things just so to make the features work...and it has a lot of
restrictions to its smooth functioning... Once you know the 'ins and outs'
it's a great performer and I have been told as much from other designers
that use it regularly. Many spend more than a year setting things up to get
it to operate smoothly. I don't use Mentor in my job... I use Protel
regularly, so it was a challenge for me to come up to speed and teach the
class at the same time... but we managed albeit with some help from the
Mentor AE. We had a tough time, but we also had a lot of fun in the class
and learned a lot.
We thought it was possible to use Mentor in a dual roll to teach beginners
along with experienced designers as well... and it still may be possible if
it was configured correctly, but the college tech support from Mentor was
lacking and there were no pre-built libraries to capitalize upon and no
money to buy them with anyway, and no canned exercises, so getting the
network of 25 stations up and running was something of a challenge and took
a lot of extra work, but the class had to go on... The Mentor AE spent a lot
of his own personal time in the class teaching the tool to me and the
students... (You see, I didn't get sent to any Mentor training classes so I
was not an expert at the program either. I didn't let that stop me from
trying though... I expected to just pick it up and go...it wasn't that
simple.) At any rate, it all makes a great 'cocktail' for embarrassment and
fumbling for answers when the system won't let you place a part or route a
board because it won't compile... or some obscure error won't clear or you
loose all your work when it crashes... etc... and all that really detracts
from the curriculum and the true point of the class which is teaching design
which I tried desperately to focus on but the tool kept getting in the
way... it's all water over the bridge now... and things will get better, it
just takes time and effort.
Realistically, the average designer couldn't afford Mentor Expedition as a
platform for setting up a small business... whereas PADS or Protel or some
other similar software would be more in their financial reach. (I think
Mentor gets about 40k a seat for Expedition)... So the students in my class
that were learning Mentor Expedition really needed to have much more than
basic training in PCB Design to be truly marketable with that CAD tool. Most
shops that use Mentor hire very experienced designers and wouldn't think of
hiring a beginner. So it worked well for the experienced folks as a way to
enhance their careers... but not so well for the newbies... Which is what
bothers me the most... I want to bring the new students up to speed on PCB
design. Then let them move to a tool that gets them an entry level job. I'm
sorry that some designers resent the idea that new designers need to be
trained to keep this profession strong in America and elsewhere. I feel much
worse for the kids in America who look for a job and can only get one
pushing carts at Sam's Club or twirling pizza dough at the local pizzeria...
Our children in the U.S. need careers, not left over service jobs and I want
to do something to help change that. That's why I teach in addition to my
full time job as a PCB design engineer.
If you were going to hire a Junior PCB designer... what would they need to
know to be able to support your workload? Would your company train them to
use your cad tool? How could they take some of the burden off you to free
you up to get more quality designs done? Maybe there in lies an answer. If
we figure out a way for the kids to participate and grow with us, then when
we retire, they can carry on and we can move to Maui or something... live
off social security or whatever... ;) I bet that sounds pretty crazy huh...
especially after so much of the old 401K disappeared awhile back... who's
got enough money to retire? Not me... and Social security is a joke...
Oh well... at any rate, I'm interested in any ideas you all have... and some
of the comments made so far are terrific! I'll keep trying to make some kind
of a difference here as long as I am able. I really wasn't going to blurt
all of this stuff out in the forum but what the heck... If someone benefits
from it then it was worth it. I wonder how many of you would have taken on
trying to teach in a classroom... it's not for the timid that's for sure...
but the rewards of seeing a young kid go out and succeed and get a job with
growth potential is great. I think that's what the DC is supposed to be all
about... helping designers making it... and their kids too.
Best regards,
Bill Brooks - KG6VVP
PCB Design Engineer, C.I.D.+, C.I.I.
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
Datron World Communications, Inc.
_______________________________________
San Diego Chapter of the IPC Designers Council
Communications Officer, Web Manager
http://dcchapters.ipc.org/SanDiego/
http://pcbwizards.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Brooks,Bill [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 1:07 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] Design Software to use as a teaching tool???
Sore point Mitch... nice zinger...
Bill Brooks - KG6VVP
PCB Design Engineer, C.I.D.+, C.I.I.
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
Datron World Communications, Inc.
_______________________________________
San Diego Chapter of the IPC Designers Council
Communications Officer, Web Manager
http://dcchapters.ipc.org/SanDiego/
http://pcbwizards.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Mitch S. Morey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 1:02 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] Design Software to use as a teaching tool???
And I thought I had seen it all... ;)
First thought: I'd try my best to talk them out of getting in this field!
Get a degree and become an engineer and design circuits! Or, go into ASIC
design. PAYS LOTS MORE!
Secondly: Don't you instruct the class at Palomar? Why did Palomar choose
Mentor as their tool? Wasn't it also an ease-o-use decision along with it
being 'given' to the university by Mentor?
I'm confused. (That's why I'm in this field) ;)
Mitch
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