Hmph! George just described the last 35 years of my life!
8^)
Donn
> -----Original Message-----
> From: George Patrick [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 3:39 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [DC] Design Software to use as a teaching tool???
>
> For something completely different :)
>
> An idea would be to teach off a board -- a PC Board, not a white board.
> Any tool does things in a different way then any other tool, but the one
> common denominator is the finished product, the circuit board itself.
>
> Maybe this is kind of radical, but I think the students first need to
> learn basic electronics, so they know how a circuit functions and why
> certain parts need to be near (or far) from other parts. It doesn't
> need to be on an engineering level, just enough to understand crosstalk,
> impedance, RLC and such. The care and feeding of engineers and their
> schematics would be a logical part of this phase. Hands on might be
> constructing the circuits on a schematic and running it thru simulation.
>
> They next need to learn how a board is assembled, so they understand the
> limitations of the process and the reasons behind assembly restrictions
> and constraints. An introduction to the hassles the average assembly
> worker goes through each day, things that help and things that drive
> them crazy. Soldering processes, pitfalls, problems, and solutions.
> Processes used to test the boards, and how the designer can aid this.
> Hands on might be soldering parts on example boards using manual
> pick/place, or could be tours or videos of assembly shops. The IPC
> makes a number of these, don't they?
>
> Then they need to understand the actual boards, how parts are connected,
> the mechanics behind a PCB, how signals are connected (vias, etc), how
> the boards are manufactured, the limitations of the boards (crosstalk
> and such). Physical problems that can crop up such as bow/twist, and
> what to do to prevent it. Again, IPC training materials could be used
> here.
>
> Now, basic design theory. Trace widths, spacing, impedance. Planes. All
> the guts of a design that need to be done on ANY design tool.
> Placement, routing, busses, length matching, IPC standards. Hands on
> could be introducing one of the simple, cheep design tools that could be
> taken home so the student can "play" with them on their own.
>
> Finally, the students should have hands on, intensive training on a
> higher level tool, preferably one that is used in their area. Ideally,
> this phase could be repeated for additional tools, so the student could
> get a broad exposure to more than one.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> --
> George Patrick
> Tektronix, Inc.
> Central Engineering, Engineering Design Services
> P.O. Box 500, M/S 39-512
> Beaverton, OR 97077-0001
> Phone: 503-627-5272 Fax: 503-627-5587
> http://www.tektronix.com http://www.pcb-designer.com
>
> It's my opinion, not Tektronix'
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> Brooks,Bill
> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 12:57
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [DC] Design Software to use as a teaching tool???
>
>
> Well. There are advantages and disadvantages to using any tool... I
> think
> about the newbie who has no experience trying to learn the tool in order
> to
> learn the concepts... That is mostly what happens... we don't have
> drafting
> tables or bishop graphics tape and Mylar anymore, (except in the PCB
> museum
> and the glue on the back of the tape is more like gooey gum from age...
> or
> hardened varnish in some cases that won't stick to anything...) I kind
> of
> liked the fact that mechanical pencils and x-acto knives didn't need
> batteries to work... (but I still used an electric eraser though...:))
>
> Try to think of the complexity of teaching some of the tools that are
> already out there to someone who doesn't know what a via is... I don't
> think
> it helps them much to attempt to learn a tool without the concepts...
> But
> what are we left with to use to teach them the concepts with? I suppose
> you
> could cover a lot of ground by lecturing about it using PowerPoint but
> the
> newbie needs to get their hands on something to draw with and manipulate
> parts and hook them up to make it their own... They need to understand
> the
> parameters that affect component footprints, soldering, tolerances and
> frankly a whole host of other things... If it takes a long time to teach
> the
> tool, they never get into much of the fundamentals in a semester...
> mostly
> they just learn the tool.
>
> I think the tool needs to be simpler for teaching purposes, easy to use,
> and
> not fraught with bugs and restrictions like many cad programs seem to
> require... it can really get in the way of teaching what the student
> needs
> to learn, 'How to design'.
>
> If you had to pick up a new tool and produce 2 double sided surface
> mount
> boards with it in 2 weeks (a semester is about 96 hours class time of
> which
> half is lecture and half is lab). Is there any tool that would lend
> itself
> to doing that? A lot of the students have training in AutoCAD... would
> you
> use it?
>
> Most of the tools I have seen have fairly long learning curves (although
> the
> demo that the sales guys gives you makes it look easy), in reality you
> spend
> months just developing libraries, and working around the restrictions of
> the
> software or fumbling with obscure commands and concepts and finding out
> long
> down the road after you have spent your money and time that the package
> you
> have needs to be upgraded or enhanced to do the simple task you want to
> do... something that it won't do after you just spent hours trying to
> make
> it do it. I don't think that it's fair to the students to saddle them
> with a
> difficult tool when they haven't even learned the basics yet.
>
> Is there anything 'easy to pick up' out there? Or maybe something
> designed
> as a teaching tool that could be purchased or downloaded by the
> students?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Bill Brooks - KG6VVP
> PCB Design Engineer, C.I.D.+, C.I.I.
> Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
> Datron World Communications, Inc.
> _______________________________________
> San Diego Chapter of the IPC Designers Council
> Communications Officer, Web Manager
> http://dcchapters.ipc.org/SanDiego/
> http://pcbwizards.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mario Irigoyen [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 11:45 AM
> To: '(Designers Council Forum)'; 'Brooks,Bill'
> Subject: RE: [DC] Design Software to use as a teaching tool???
>
> Hi Bill, (and everyone else)
>
> I think your responses to this question will be as varied and probably
> mirror the usage of the many tools out there. I'm sure we all have our
> favorites.
>
> I would teach fundies first then move on to software since the tools are
> supposed to assist a designer not be a designer.
>
> I agree with Pete, a drafting table and with Kevin, Bishop Graphics
> tape.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mario Irigoyen
> 630-759-5505
> 630-803-1378 Cell
> [log in to unmask]
>
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