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Subject:
Re: <Misc>[TN] RoHs board surface recommendations - Apology
From:
Steve Hodge <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>, Steve Hodge <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:32:44 -0600
Content-Type:
text/plain
Parts/Attachments:
text/plain (314 lines) 
Apology accepted George. I have been in the business too long to not care
and to not have opinions. Most opinions are just that.Opinions. Everyone
has different methods of forming their own.

At 02:22 PM 08/11/2005, you wrote:
>Steve,
>
>My public apology to you.  I was not down grading your opinion at all.  I
>was simply trying to make the point that it is okay to be opinionated as
>long as the opinions are based on available facts and not wife's tails and
>sales pitches.  Your three years problem-free experience with ENIG is
>certainly based on data.  My point was that John's email was certainly
>opinionated  but it was based on data and he certainly wasn't using his
>opinion to convince anyone that ENIG is bad and you shouldn't use it nor
>was he sell anything.  His statement "The ENIG when it fails can be
>catastrophic...and in most cases can be pointed back to the process at the
>fab house rather than what happened to it during the assembly process,
>unlike most of the other finish defects, and has to my knowledge resulted
>in multi million dollar lawsuits between companies in the bay area due to
>failures." is certainly based on available facts.  Back in 1996 when we
>first started evaluating immersion silver I gave an internal talk to Bell
>Labs engineers entitled "Silver Oxidizes, Silver Tarnishes, Silver
>Migrates - Why Would Anyone In Their Right Mind Use Silver".  The point of
>the talk was to engage the technical community to put a program together
>to generate assembly, use, and reliability data that could be used to make
>an informed decision on a PCB surface finish rather than allow  supply
>chain bureaucrats to make the decision on sales pitches.
>
>Regards,
>George
>George M. Wenger
>Reliability / FMA Engineer
>Base Station and Subsystems Group
>Andrew Corporation, 40 Technology Drive, Warren, NJ 07059 (908) 546-4531
>[log in to unmask]
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Steve Hodge [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 3:37 PM
>To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Wenger, George M.
>Subject: Re: <Misc>Re: [TN] <Misc>Re: [TN] RoHs board surface
>recommendations.
>
>
>George, I am sorry you feel you have to downgrade my opinion as being a
>sales pitch or "wife's tail". I am stating data -substantiated facts and I
>could care less about selling something to you or anyone else. A wife's
>tail? What? My wife does not have a tail. I think it should be "wive's
>tale" anyway.
>
>At 12:30 PM 08/11/2005, you wrote:
> >John,
> >
> >Your opinionated!  but then too so am I.  However, it sounds like our
> >opinions are based on data and not "wife's tails" or "sales pitches"
> >
> >Regards,
> >George
> >George M. Wenger
> >Reliability / FMA Engineer
> >Base Station and Subsystems Group
> >Andrew Corporation, 40 Technology Drive, Warren, NJ 07059 (908) 546-4531
> >[log in to unmask]
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of John Burke
> >Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 2:16 PM
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: [TN] <Misc>Re: [TN] RoHs board surface recommendations.
> >
> >
> >Very nice,
> >
> >Until you consider that ENIG infringes the design rules for at least one of
> >the top 3 global CM's due to the issues associated with it.
> >
> >If you want the number of their chief technologist who has to look at enigma
> >failures week in week out I will happily supply details off line.
> >
> >I personally have built hundreds of thousands of assemblies on ENIG as well
> >as Immersion AG.
> >
> >As for the rest, HASL is generally failure related to a complete lack of
> >understanding of tin thickness and intermetallic growth rate, OSP failures
> >generally are related to not understanding the degradation of that finish
> >with multiple reflow cycling, and personally I would never use immersion tin
> >without some type of diffusion barrier between it and the copper if nay time
> >in storage was to be considered.
> >
> >The ENIG when it fails can be catastrophic............and in most cases can
> >be pointed back to the process at the fab house rather than what happened to
> >it during the assembly process, unlike most of the other finish defects, and
> >has to my knowledge resulted in multi million dollar lawsuits between
> >companies in the bay area due to failures.
> >
> >If it doesn't fail - it is fine, but the joint shear strength is less than
> >the equivalent HASL or immersion AG finish due to the Tin nickel/nickel
> >copper crystalline structure, so taking into consideration the higher
> >temperatures of lead free I would be vary careful using it for area array
> >packages using this soldering technology.
> >
> >For the record have been using immersion silver since 1996 as I produced the
> >first beta site production runs using alpha level, so perhaps my views have
> >a little more history.
> >
> >Call me opinionated - I'll take it.
> >
> >John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >Avanex
> >John Burke
> >Senior Manager RoHS Compliance
> >[log in to unmask]
> >40919 Encyclopedia Circle
> >Fremont
> >CA 94538
> >tel: 510 897 4250
> >fax: 510 979 0189
> >mobile: 510 676 6312
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Steve Hodge [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> >Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 10:44 AM
> >To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; John Burke
> >Subject: Re: <Misc>Re: [TN] RoHs board surface recommendations.
> >
> >
> >John, come on now. Anything can happen at any time. I have seen some
> >reservations from the IS users as to silver migration possibilities and
> >shelf life/handling issues --you might say they have not seen them --"yet".
> >I have had more problems with HASL, OSP and IT than I have with ENIG. ENIG
> >has longer data history than IS, so both shoes have already dropped so to
> >speak. Three years without problems, is an eternity in this business,
> >especially when we are expected to build  custom products in 24 hours.
> >
> >
> >At 11:00 AM 08/11/2005, you wrote:
> > >with it............YET..........
> > >
> > >------------------------------------
> > >Avanex
> > >John Burke
> > >Senior Manager RoHS Compliance
> > >[log in to unmask]
> > >40919 Encyclopedia Circle
> > >Fremont
> > >CA 94538
> > >tel: 510 897 4250
> > >fax: 510 979 0189
> > >mobile: 510 676 6312
> > >------------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Edwin Louis
> > >Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 4:48 AM
> > >To: [log in to unmask]
> > >Subject: Re: [TN] RoHs board surface recommendations.
> > >
> > >
> > >We have been using ENIG now for about three years and have had no bad
> > >experiences with it. NASA for one does not allow the use of silver .
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Werner Engelmaier
> > >Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:57 PM
> > >To: [log in to unmask]
> > >Subject: Re: [TN] RoHs board surface recommendations.
> > >
> > >Hi Steve,
> > >I do not know about "bad-mouth ENIG"--I am a reliability consultant, and
> > >have
> > >had plenty of calls because of ENIG related failures, but not a one about
> > >iAg. On the other hand, I do not know about their respective environmental
> > >implications.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >Werner Engelmaier
> > >Engelmaier Associates, L.C.
> > >Electronic Packaging, Interconnection and Reliability Consulting
> > >7 Jasmine Run
> > >Ormond Beach, FL 32174 USA
> > >Phone: 386-437-8747, Fax: 386-437-8737, Cell: 386-316-5904
> > >E-mail: [log in to unmask], Website: www.engelmaier.com
> > >
> > >
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