Steve,
My public apology to you. I was not down grading your opinion at all. I was simply trying to make the point that it is okay to be opinionated as long as the opinions are based on available facts and not wife's tails and sales pitches. Your three years problem-free experience with ENIG is certainly based on data. My point was that John's email was certainly opinionated but it was based on data and he certainly wasn't using his opinion to convince anyone that ENIG is bad and you shouldn't use it nor was he sell anything. His statement "The ENIG when it fails can be catastrophic...and in most cases can be pointed back to the process at the fab house rather than what happened to it during the assembly process, unlike most of the other finish defects, and has to my knowledge resulted in multi million dollar lawsuits between companies in the bay area due to failures." is certainly based on available facts. Back in 1996 when we first started evaluating immersion silver I gave an internal talk to Bell Labs engineers entitled "Silver Oxidizes, Silver Tarnishes, Silver Migrates - Why Would Anyone In Their Right Mind Use Silver". The point of the talk was to engage the technical community to put a program together to generate assembly, use, and reliability data that could be used to make an informed decision on a PCB surface finish rather than allow supply chain bureaucrats to make the decision on sales pitches.
Regards,
George
George M. Wenger
Reliability / FMA Engineer
Base Station and Subsystems Group
Andrew Corporation, 40 Technology Drive, Warren, NJ 07059 (908) 546-4531 [log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Hodge [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 3:37 PM
To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Wenger, George M.
Subject: Re: <Misc>Re: [TN] <Misc>Re: [TN] RoHs board surface
recommendations.
George, I am sorry you feel you have to downgrade my opinion as being a
sales pitch or "wife's tail". I am stating data -substantiated facts and I
could care less about selling something to you or anyone else. A wife's
tail? What? My wife does not have a tail. I think it should be "wive's
tale" anyway.
At 12:30 PM 08/11/2005, you wrote:
>John,
>
>Your opinionated! but then too so am I. However, it sounds like our
>opinions are based on data and not "wife's tails" or "sales pitches"
>
>Regards,
>George
>George M. Wenger
>Reliability / FMA Engineer
>Base Station and Subsystems Group
>Andrew Corporation, 40 Technology Drive, Warren, NJ 07059 (908) 546-4531
>[log in to unmask]
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of John Burke
>Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 2:16 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [TN] <Misc>Re: [TN] RoHs board surface recommendations.
>
>
>Very nice,
>
>Until you consider that ENIG infringes the design rules for at least one of
>the top 3 global CM's due to the issues associated with it.
>
>If you want the number of their chief technologist who has to look at enigma
>failures week in week out I will happily supply details off line.
>
>I personally have built hundreds of thousands of assemblies on ENIG as well
>as Immersion AG.
>
>As for the rest, HASL is generally failure related to a complete lack of
>understanding of tin thickness and intermetallic growth rate, OSP failures
>generally are related to not understanding the degradation of that finish
>with multiple reflow cycling, and personally I would never use immersion tin
>without some type of diffusion barrier between it and the copper if nay time
>in storage was to be considered.
>
>The ENIG when it fails can be catastrophic............and in most cases can
>be pointed back to the process at the fab house rather than what happened to
>it during the assembly process, unlike most of the other finish defects, and
>has to my knowledge resulted in multi million dollar lawsuits between
>companies in the bay area due to failures.
>
>If it doesn't fail - it is fine, but the joint shear strength is less than
>the equivalent HASL or immersion AG finish due to the Tin nickel/nickel
>copper crystalline structure, so taking into consideration the higher
>temperatures of lead free I would be vary careful using it for area array
>packages using this soldering technology.
>
>For the record have been using immersion silver since 1996 as I produced the
>first beta site production runs using alpha level, so perhaps my views have
>a little more history.
>
>Call me opinionated - I'll take it.
>
>John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>Avanex
>John Burke
>Senior Manager RoHS Compliance
>[log in to unmask]
>40919 Encyclopedia Circle
>Fremont
>CA 94538
>tel: 510 897 4250
>fax: 510 979 0189
>mobile: 510 676 6312
>------------------------------------
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Steve Hodge [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 10:44 AM
>To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; John Burke
>Subject: Re: <Misc>Re: [TN] RoHs board surface recommendations.
>
>
>John, come on now. Anything can happen at any time. I have seen some
>reservations from the IS users as to silver migration possibilities and
>shelf life/handling issues --you might say they have not seen them --"yet".
>I have had more problems with HASL, OSP and IT than I have with ENIG. ENIG
>has longer data history than IS, so both shoes have already dropped so to
>speak. Three years without problems, is an eternity in this business,
>especially when we are expected to build custom products in 24 hours.
>
>
>At 11:00 AM 08/11/2005, you wrote:
> >with it............YET..........
> >
> >------------------------------------
> >Avanex
> >John Burke
> >Senior Manager RoHS Compliance
> >[log in to unmask]
> >40919 Encyclopedia Circle
> >Fremont
> >CA 94538
> >tel: 510 897 4250
> >fax: 510 979 0189
> >mobile: 510 676 6312
> >------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Edwin Louis
> >Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 4:48 AM
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: [TN] RoHs board surface recommendations.
> >
> >
> >We have been using ENIG now for about three years and have had no bad
> >experiences with it. NASA for one does not allow the use of silver .
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Werner Engelmaier
> >Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:57 PM
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: [TN] RoHs board surface recommendations.
> >
> >Hi Steve,
> >I do not know about "bad-mouth ENIG"--I am a reliability consultant, and
> >have
> >had plenty of calls because of ENIG related failures, but not a one about
> >iAg. On the other hand, I do not know about their respective environmental
> >implications.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Werner Engelmaier
> >Engelmaier Associates, L.C.
> >Electronic Packaging, Interconnection and Reliability Consulting
> >7 Jasmine Run
> >Ormond Beach, FL 32174 USA
> >Phone: 386-437-8747, Fax: 386-437-8737, Cell: 386-316-5904
> >E-mail: [log in to unmask], Website: www.engelmaier.com
> >
> >
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