A timely topic. If I can open my response with an all encompassing oxymoron,
"The nice thing about standards, is that there are so many of them"
Try this panelization optimizer program. It is the only 1 I have seen yet,
but it looks easy to use, inexpensive, etc.
I think I will purchase this one, as I too am grappling with this issue.
Where I worked previously, we panelized everything, but in close
consultation with our PCB fab house, based on their recommendations, then
also consulting our CM on the same. So we arrived at a panel size which met
our goals (max yield) & theirs wrt manufacturing ease, etc.
At my new job, the CM wants all PCB's 1-up & they dictate with the PCB
vendors what they will panelize each of our PCB's to. This has created
several manufacturing issues which we are still struggling with. All would
be solved if I could just panelize myself. For 1, the paste stencil files we
never see & thus, cannot archive with the rest of the gerbers. So when we
build the next time, the PCB fab house, even though they are the same, will
panelize slightly differently. This 1-up concept has more drawbacks than
bonuses, believe me.
The site below has a program called KWICKFIT4.1 which has a 30 day trial
http://www.micromeg.com/
No, it is not my product, nor do I know the fellow. Just a whiz-bang product
we could all use to make more intelligent & researched decisions. I don't
benift by pushing this product. It is one I will buy, unless someone can
recommend (from experience) something similar.
A very good & timely thread, Bill.
Regards
TDK
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Garry Foskett
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 1:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Standard panel size?...
Steve,
Just to add comments from my experience. When I was looking into this
the response I found most useful from the production guys was that
depending on the size of the run they were prepared to set the line up
for a different panel that I defined for best space utilization.
When doing a smaller run I would find out the panel sizes they were set
up for and work out a placement strategy that did the best utilization
of the space available.
Also a comment on V scoring, this is great for space saving but if your
boards have any on board contacts such as buttons it would be best to go
for routing, as the V-Scoring can lead to board fibers interfering with
the contact operation and providing unreliable contacts. Even washing
the boards after separation provided a limited success in stopping the
problem
Garry
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Lee parker
Sent: 29 July 2005 03:44
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Standard panel size?...
Steve
I agree V-scoring should be a part of the initial design concept not an
after thought. I have worked with many designers where cost is the
primary consideration and we have found V-scoring to be a primary cost
avoidance driver. As you point out though, to achieve the maximum
benefit, this technology must be a part of the design process, not an
after thought.
Best regards
Lee
J. Lee Parker, Ph.D.
JLP Consultants LLC
804 779 3389
----- Original Message -----
From: stephen gregory<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: TechNet E-Mail Forum<mailto:[log in to unmask]> ; Lee
parker<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: [TN] Standard panel size?...
Hi Bill!
V-scoring is great for some assemblies, but wreck havoc for others! I
will depend on how close components are located to the score line. You
can fracture components (especially capacitors) if you're not careful.
As to what size is better for your assemblers, (I'm sorry for having
to use a registered and copyrighted statement), it depends...
As an example, just today one of our buyers wanted me to look at a
panel layout of a board we were about to buy that was recommended by one
of the board reps that we deal with. The board is about 2" X 12". Good
candidate for panelization, right? Sure.
Their recomendation was to be a 4-up scored panel, with .5" breakaway
rails on the sides. I stopped that as soon as I saw it. It was good for
the board house, because they would be able to give us a low price per
board...but what we had to do to singulate the individual boards after
we assembled them wasn't their problem.
There was double-sided SMT, and the passives were all on the
bottom...some located pretty close to the board edge. On top of that,
they were oriented perpendicular to the board edge...just asking for
cracked components or solder joints when trying to separate the the
boards after assembly.
As a designer, you need to be in tune with who will be building your
boards, and what their capabilities are.
-Steve Gregory-
Lee parker <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Bill
Have you considered V-scoring your panels as a way of minimizing
waste. Most shops have this capability. after assembly you break the
boards out of the subpanel along the V-score line.
Best regards
Lee
J. Lee Parker, Ph.D.
JLP Consultants LLC
804 779 3389
----- Original Message -----
From: Brooks,Bill
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [TN] Standard panel size?...
Thanks for responding Lee...
After doing some investigation... I'm thinking a 8X10 assembly panel
would
work well for our assembly folks and still be dividable into a 18X24
or
12X18 panel without difficulty...
One shop recommended 8.2 X 11.2 as the maximum assembly panel so it
gave
them room to put a .100 in router bit down the center and ¾ in. all
round
the perimeter... another wants .400 in between the boards... still
another
has many more standard panel sizes to work from and sees no problem
with
many different configurations... it's a bit 'non-standard' if you
ask me...
but that's what makes the challenge interesting... I'm wondering
what other
folks are using for their standard assembly panels...
:-)
Bill Brooks - KG6VVP
PCB Design Engineer, C.I.D.+, C.I.I.
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
Datron World Communications, Inc.
_______________________________________
San Diego Chapter of the IPC Designers Council
Communications Officer, Web Manager
> http://dcchapters.ipc.org/SanDiego/
> http://pcbwizards.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee parker [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 5:20 PM
To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Brooks,Bill
Subject: Re: [TN] Standard panel size?...
Bill
18x24 is by far the most popular panel size used in the industry.
Most
Chinese shops, however, often tailor the panel size to the board or
subpanel
to optimize panel utilization. I suggest if you are using a Chinese
shop you
consult with them and take advantage of this benefit. I worked in
the AT&T
Richmond shop from the day it opened till it was shut down and we
never
considered multiple sizes to be manageable. After visiting many of
the
shops in China, I have come to realize that not all knowledge
resides in
North America.
Best regards
LeeJ. Lee Parker, Ph.D.
JLP Consultants LLC
804 779 3389
----- Original Message -----
From: Brooks,Bill >
To: [log in to unmask] >
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 6:45 PM
Subject: [TN] Standard panel size?...
Hi TechNet...
We are re-evaluating our board assembly panel sizes and want to get
the best
yields from our vendor's manufacturing panels when we select the
final size
of our 'standard' assembly panel...
What is your PCB manufacturing 'standard' panel size for glass/epoxy
type
materials??? Some PCB vendors tell me they have a working panel size
of
18x24 inches... what do you use? And why?
Thanks in advance for your help...
Bill Brooks - KG6VVP
PCB Design Engineer, C.I.D.+, C.I.I.
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
Datron World Communications, Inc.
_______________________________________
San Diego Chapter of the IPC Designers Council
Communications Officer, Web Manager
http://dcchapters.ipc.org/SanDiego/ >
http://pcbwizards.com >
---------------------------------------------------
Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] >
with following text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to
[log in to unmask] > : SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)
To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to
[log in to unmask] > : SET Technet Digest
Search the archives of previous posts at:
http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
>
Please visit IPC web site
http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16
> for additional
information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask]
> or 847-615-7100 ext.2815
-----------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following
text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)
To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
Search the archives of previous posts at:
http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
Please visit IPC web site
http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional
information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100
ext.2815
-----------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following
text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)
To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
Search the archives of previous posts at:
http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
Please visit IPC web site
http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional
information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100
ext.2815
-----------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text
in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)
To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
Search the archives of previous posts at:
http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
Please visit IPC web site
http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional
information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100
ext.2815
-----------------------------------------------------
________________________________________________________________________
This e-mail has been scanned for viruses. The service is powered by
MessageLabs.
________________________________________________________________________
---------------------------------------------------
Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)
To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to
[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16
for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or
847-615-7100 ext.2815
-----------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)
To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815
-----------------------------------------------------
|
