the "program" that in order to use efficiently you have to spend even
more money on it, and that "program" happens to be from your
company!!!!
-- "Nick Ban (PCBL)" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Matthew, When the print feature is enabled, my guess is IPC will offer
printouts as PDFs so you will have the option of leafing through thousands
of pages to search for parts or do an electronic search using the "program",
whichever you find more efficient.
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Matthew
Lamkin
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] Propaganda Rant
>You can use the standard without using the program.
How?
The footprints are not available as a document (or are they)?
If they are not, how do we use them without the program?
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
McConnell, Karen E
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 1:42 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] Propaganda Rant
I am a member of the standard committee that worked on the IPC-7351 and
at no time did the "program" get written into the standard. The program
came after the standard. You can use the standard without using the
program.
As for your example, if Boeing wants to support a standard by donating a
portion of their IP to the industry for free, I would look at that an
option to lower the cost to my company to develop an aircraft if I had a
FREE piece of the puzzle.
Mentor Boardstation only supported the IPC-356 netlist via an awk file
that was not included in their software. I still occasionally have to
distribute it to sites (both internal and external).
As for the companies that support standards with software, did any of
these companies offer IPC a subset of the standard for free?
BTW: Although ANSI does not attend the meetings, IPC gets audited by
ANSI on their processes.
------------------------------
Karen
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
George Patrick
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:34 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] Propaganda Rant
Karen:
You have missed the point. If as company decides to support a standard
with
software they have a right to do so. It is apple pie, Mom, and the
American
Way. The same with (some) companies enabling folks to be members of
committees and supporting this work both directly by paying the fees for
the
meetings but also indirectly by paying the participants salaries during
the
meetings. I have no problem with this either, I wish I had the time and
support to do this myself.
The problem is with including a "subset" of a commercial product as PART
of
the standard. It should NOT be the "job" of the IPC to support software
development at a particular company. Yes, they should encourage
companies
to provide this software. Yes, they should even provide links to any
company that supports their standard with software and requests to be
linked
to the IPC web site. But it is not in their charter to act as a
marketing
aid to a particular company or to provide a marketing path for a
particular
company.
It is a stretch of the imagination, but think of it like this: A
standard
involving aircraft wiring is released, and a Boeing aircraft is included
with the standard as an example of how it should be implemented. Would
you
feel this was above board and a normal competitive practice (albeit
expensive)? :)
PCBL may be totally altruistic with all these projects in which they are
involved, but this is not the point. Since including the viewer is
providing valuable visibility from a potentially "captive audience,"
they
are using the IPC as an aid to their marketing activities. They should
have
to market (or give away) their products on their own merits, NOT because
the
IPC is including them in their standards.
Although ANSI oversees the process, they don't actually attend committee
meetings, do they? When a company that is directly profiting by
inclusion
of their product in a standard is participating in the development of
the
standard, the possibility is there for pressure to be applied to "steer"
the
standard, favoring features and contents of their product. This is not
really a problem (I would hope) with PCBL, but as long as tie practice
of
including commercial software in standards is continued the
possibilities
for malfeasance are there. I am not trying to denigrate volunteers, I
am
trying to protect the process from possible problems. Lockheed does not
expect to profit directly from your participation in the IPC, neither
should
any other participating company.
By the way, when an IPC standard is useful, the market will follow.
Mentor,
Cadence, and others support the IPC356 netlist standard, here and there
they
support other standards. There are third party companies that support
the
GENCAM standard. None of these companies had a subset of their software
dealing with the standard included WITH the standard. See why some see
this
as different?
Finally, it is a fact that the IPC operated a free, online land pattern
calculator in conjunction with the original land pattern standard. I am
not
sure that the IPC should have ever provided the calculator in the first
place, but the decision to remove it in conjunction with release of a
new
commercial product from a company involved with the development of the
new
standard had the appearance of generating profit from participation in
the
standards process. Yes, PCBL has said they will do a free online
calculator
this summer, but this was only after some of us had decided to start
development of a public-domain free calculator that this popped up. I
don't
think the removal of the old calculator would have generated as much
backlash if the new product hadn't been so closely coupled with the
standard, to the point of linking the PCBL website to the old calculator
URL.
The IPC should be in the business of producing and supporting standards
and
educational opportunities, not marketing software.
<:^)
--
George Patrick
Private Citizen
Tektronix, Inc.
Central Engineering, PCB Design Group
P.O. Box 500, M/S 39-512
Beaverton, OR 97077-0001
Phone: 503-627-5272 Fax: 503-627-5587
http://www.tektronix.com http://www.pcb-designer.com
It's my opinion, not Tektronix'
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
McConnell, Karen E
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 06:48
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] Propaganda Rant
Hi all,
No one company drives a standard. IPC has to answer to ANSI on its
process for creation, updating and approving standards. It takes a lot
of work from both IPC employees and volunteers from member companies.
Rather than complaining about PCBLibraries "free" advertising we should
be asking why don't other CAD companies embrace standards by providing
export/import interfaces or "free" software to the industry.
History lesson for this Rant:
FACT: PCB Libraries offered to work with the 2-10 Data Transfer
Committee on a method to use the IPC-2581 (Data Transfer Standard) to
provide a tool which would use the Data Transfer standard. At the time
this offer occurred the committee was looking for anyone to use the
standard to develop a tool.
Think back to a few years ago to the "DB++/GenCAM War" and the "Peace
Agreement" between Valor and IPC which resulted in 2 committees to work
on the best solution for a single standard. As a member of the GenCAM
Committee, the Convergence Management Team, member of the 2-17 committee
and now the Chair of the 2-10 Committee, I have sat in many meetings
discussing the Chicken & Egg barrier to getting the IPC-2581 spec
accepted. (The Chicken & Egg barrier is EDA companies would not write an
interface unless their customers were asking for it and customers could
not migrate to the IPC-2581 standard without the EDA companies
interface. PCBLibraries volunteered to implement the new standard which
would allow users to view the new IPC-7351 footprints.
Yes, PCBLibraries gets free advertising but nowhere in this discussion
have I seen evidence that another company was not allowed to provide a
free tool to the industry. They did not force changes on the 1-13
Surface Mount land Patterns Subcommittee. Both the IPC-2581 and
IPC-7351 were well on their way to completion when PCBLibraries offered
the 2-10 software.
Instead of complaining about the need to buy the CAD interfaces or
knocking the IPC for accepting an offer of free software, we should be
thanking both IPC and PCBLibraries for providing a means to visual the
changes on a footprint due to the 3 tiered approach free of charge. I am
grateful that I do not need to fill in a form in order to download this
software as I do with other free offers.
An additional 2 cents on this rant, time to go back to work,
------------------------------
Karen McConnell
Chair, IPC 2-10
Senior Member Engineering Staff - Electronics / PWB
Lockheed Martin - Engineering Process Improvement Center
http://www.epic.lmco.com/
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