Joe,
By Protel, I am assumming Protel 99 SE, and Possibly the older Protel 98, or newer
DXP.
In any event, if you haven't already (I haven't seen your name in any of the
forums), you need to join the PEDA forum at:
===> http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/index.html
Which is an absolutely excellent ongoing discussion of all things Protel, and which
covers all facetts of PCB Design.
Just monitoring such a listserver forum will answer most of your questions, and if
you ever have any specific questions, then just ask, and you will probably get
several answers within a few hours.
I would even suggest looking thru the archive of the above forum.
There are also a few forums conducted by Altium themselves for the newer version of
Protel such as DXP and also P-CAD, and these can be accessed by the Protel website
by looking under the Protel Community area.
There is also a Yahoo Group that has a smaller circulation, but is still a source of
answers, and they can be accessed at :
===> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/protel-users/
Generally these software specific forums get into the nuts and bolts kind of
questions that you might be interested in, and they they can answer many of you
questions, sometimes even before you ask them.
You might even consider looking at other software forums, such as the PADs forum at:
===> [log in to unmask] (please note that the this email will probably
bounce, but
will probably direct you
to the right plave to join).
Which is also a very active forum that covers a lot of territory in terms of how to
do things in the world of PCB Design.
Hopefully some of these above resources will be of help to you.
JaMi
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Matthews" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: [DC] Designing PCB footprints
> Thanks one and all for your feedback -- and thank you JaMi, never let me fault you
for a lack of energy...or punctuation marks :) At this point I'm pretty savvy with
Protel and have used it for about five years with much success on the schematic
side. When I say I feel the pinch, this is really overstated.
>
> I need to build up some simple designs, and ideally some that are not *so* simple
as time goes on (nothing like what I'm sure you guys do everyday, but complex for me
as the novice). I am weary of having to constantly outsource this stuff - call me a
control freak, but I do want to learn some of this stuff so if I have to, I can. I
don't mind sending out the "big" ones but if I can do it, I will. This is not the
result of some corporate overlord or evil CEO, but my own desires. I know what I
can and can't change about my designs, what I don't know is how to translate some of
those changes to the finished PCB. Pointers, that's what I need. That and
reccomended reading. The IPC stuff is great but tends to reference a lot of other
IPC documents and I guess (perhaps naively) that for the type of stuff I'd hoped to
do, there would be a simpler solution than cross referencing a dozen different
documents. I took a look at some land pattern calcs and all of them seem to be l!
> eaning
> towards PADS and occasionally PCAD. When I punch in the numbers I get what looks
to be a general description of what I need but no way to output that to Protel.
>
> I went through Altium's tutorials and know how to build the parts (how to use the
software to do it - not necessarily in such a way that they work) and have slowly
begun to accumulate what seems to be a basic library. But when it comes to the
practical applciations of these standards to say a PQFP (pretty common FPGA
packaging), I hoped for advice from the seasoned professionals, only to avoid the
avoidable.
>
> The board house we had took what I did in Protel and what I did on paper and would
use a PADS netlist out of Protel to do the design. I don't want to go that route.
Leaves me with a stack of designs I can't open. We have Protel for prototypes and
in doing mostly R&D work, that's what I do, prototype circuits.
>
> I ordered myself the book that someone else on this list reccomended (thanks).
Any other pointers anyone has, fire away. I also got a list of new board houses and
I'm slowly trying to decide who's good & who's bad...Any thoughts on the metrics by
which to judge them? Any reccomendations? I got the PCB Express info here.
Hopefully I can interface their SW with Protel, though I'm not sure how that'd work
without losing parts of my files along the way, otherwise I'm right back to where I
was and what I wanted to avoid.
>
> TIA,
>
> Joe
>
>
> JaMi Smith <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hello ! ! !
>
> Is anybody home ! ! !
>
> This is sheer stupidity ! ! !
>
> So far only one person has asked the critical question, and everyone including Joe
> has ignored it ! ! !
>
> Joe - What type of PCB Software, if any, do you have ? ? ?
>
> Joe - What, if anything other than a pencil and paper, did you use to draw your
> schematics with ? ? ?
>
> You say you have been "tasked" - Do the people (your boss? - your company?) that
> have "tasked you" with this "task" own any PCB / Schematic software?
>
> You say that a board house has done this for you in the past, and made PCB's for
> you - what PCB / Schematic software did they use to make your previous PCB's
>
> If you really don't want to answer all of these questions, and if you feel that
the
> PCB is such a "no brainer", then go to PCB Express and download their "no brainer"
> software and make your own "no brainer" PCB in "10 to 12 hours" and spare us the
> false humility.
>
> If you are serious about needing help, or even needing to find someone to do the
PCB
> for you, you need to start with the above questions, since it does you absolutely
no
> good whatsoever to have your PCB done in Mentor Graphics by someone consulting for
> you, when your employer owns Protel, and you board house has done 2 or 3 previous
> PCB's in PADs, and you have been using an old copy or OrCAD 7.10 to do your
> schematics.
>
> You need to start with the Software, and so does anyone else who is really going
to
> be of any real help to you.
>
> One simple word of advice no matter what you do, and that is this: Unless you are
> doing something for Spaceflight or the Military, or it has to operate above a
> Gigahertz, you are worrying far far far far too much, and making much more out of
> the project than it has to be - in otherwords, don't be too paranoid about
> "libraries" at this point in the game, just use what you have, since by your
> discription, almost any library will do at this point in time for what you appear
to
> be doing.
>
> Start by using the software your company already owns, and just start and go from
> there. If your company doesn't own any software, then you have totally mis-judged
> and mis-stated your real task, which means that you really have to start at the
> beginning and chose what software you need based on what you have to do and what
you
> can afford, which is really a whole different can of worms than what you have
> presented here. (This question should take into consideration what was used to
make
> any previous PCB's done for you by the board house, but does not have to be ther
> overiding factor in the decision if there are not to many previous boards and they
> were not too complicated.)
>
> Enough for now, at least until you define where you really are right now in terms
of
> software.
>
> Even if you decide that you or your company doesn't want to buy any software, you
> really do need to choose a brand of software to work with before you just walk
into
> a consulting situation in which you end up with your designs done with who knows
> what, just as your previous designs. And yes, you need to consider your previous
> designs here too, to whatever extent that is worth.
>
> JaMi
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Harter, Robert"
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 8:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [DC] Designing PCB footprints
>
>
> Joseph,
>
> I tend to agree with Ted on his opinion of the CAD company's footprints,
> they're usually overly generous with the pad geometries which can really
> screw up a tight board trying to keep components from twisting or tomb
> stoning.
>
> I have been doing layout of mixed signals for 3 years after being thrown
> to the wolves as a RF Technician. Fortunately I had a manager at the
> time that saw the value of attending the CAD company's training classes.
> I have found the best source of information to be forums when I need a
> quick answer but I also try and get my hands on everything I can read
> especially PCB Design Magazine, it's free and comes in either digital or
> print monthly and for specialized design information I am a committed RF
> Design reader now lots of great information for the proper handling of
> high frequency circuits and noise reduction too.
>
> Bob Harter, Jr.
> PCB Designer
> Paratek Microwave, Inc.
> 6935 G Oakland Mills Rd.
> Columbia, MD 21045
> PH# (443)259-0140 x278
> CP# (443)739-8407
> WWW.PARATEK.COM
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ted
> Tontis
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 10:47
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [DC] Designing PCB footprints
>
> Joseph,
> I for one stay away from using footprints provided by the CAD
> vendor, CAD vendors are in the business to sell CAD software not
> footprint libraries, but that's just my personal opinion. I too was
> thrown to the wolves and forced to learn about designing PCB's in a
> crunch. From first hand I can tell you that there is no good time to
> start learning, and experience is the best teacher. Learning PCB design
> will also make you more marketable, and a better Design Engineer. If you
> have access to some of the IPC doc's that's a great place to start. I
> would also suggest you take a look at the book Karl suggested Printed
> Circuits Handbook it is worth its weight in gold. Also check with your
> CAD vendor most have forums that you can get on that have a knowledge
> base that is usually better then their customer support, and much
> faster.
> Tom Hausherr wrote an article in PCDmag about the future of CAD
> libraries, this article will not give you all the answers but may clear
> up some questions. http://pcdandm.com/pcdmag/mag/current_issue.shtml
> What type of design is this Analog, Digital, or both? There is a
> lot to designing a PCB then throwing a bunch of parts down, connecting
> the parts, and sending it to the contract manufacture to be
> manufactured. If you need help use the Designers forum as a sounding
> board, that's what it is here for.
>
> Good luck in your first design and welcome to the PCB designers world :)
>
>
> Ted
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
> Joseph Matthews
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 12:58 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [DC] Designing PCB footprints
>
>
> Dear Mario, Everyone;
>
> Thanks for the feedback everyone. Thanks Mario. Understood, it'd be
> impractical for me to think I could learn all of the nuiances of PCB
> design and in being perfectly candid, I'm not about to -- there are too
> many seasoned people out there...it makes no sense for me to embark down
> that road at this stage in my carrer -- irrespective of how lucrative it
> might be ;) (trust me, hardware engineers aren't paid *that* much).
>
> No less, for simple, one or two day prototypes I need to be able to
> layout my own boards. It's not practical to outsource hardware test
> boards (Processor/Controller boards, FPGAs, CPLDs, etc -- literally
> 20-30 components, a few pull ups, bypass caps, etc., and usually one or
> two real "interface" devices -- i.e. a header or two, comm. connector
> (RS-232, I2C), power, etc.)
>
> The unfortunate thing is that I've gone down this road before and
> to-date I've been able to get away with literally giving a schematic
> over to the baord house and for pennies (ok, maybe not pennies, but
> cheap) they've gone ahead and taken my schematic and a little
> chicken-scratch and put out a board for me. Well, things are getting a
> bit more complicated that that and our proto shop has had to
> change...long story short, I need to be able to turn out something like
> a decent set of gerbers and though I fancy myself pretty good at
> interpreting standards and information, thought who better to ask than
> the experts (I too am aware of just how little I know sometimes, beleive
> me).
>
> So I'm hoping that people have some tips, some basics, some fundamentals
> that'll help me get started in making something farily reliable. I
> checked with the board house and they are fine about specifying certain
> design constraints, and as you'd expect, the datasheet gives you some
> more to go with. The problem is that all the informaiton I can get from
> the fabricator is not going to be enough to spare me the inevitable
> reject and I'm sure (though you may hat e to admit it) you've seen years
> of mistakes that I'm hoping to avoid. Any wisdom, insights, thoughts,
> prayers, would be appreciated :)
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Joe
>
> Mario Irigoyen wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Well, here we go. I guess that's why there are professional PCB
> designers who design circuit boards and there are hardware engineers who
> design circuits. I certainly wouldn't try to grasp (or even attempt to
> learn) all the caveats of hardware design so I certainly wouldn't expect
> an engineer to do the same for PCB design. Us PCB guys understand the
> processes, guidelines, rules ... because we deal with them every day. I
> feel for you. You are being asked (forced) to move out of your realm
> into uncharted territory for what, to save time, money? The reality is -
> neither. Engineers get paid more than PCB designers (if not true please
> correct me). So, even if you could design a board in the same time as a
> PCB designer the cost is higher. But that won't happen. Then there are
> all of the manufacturing, testing, reliability ... issues that you have
> to "learn". Wow. The company would be much, much better off from every
> aspect to have the board designed by a seasoned professional PCB
> designer. Lower cost, certainly much better quality and a lot quicker.
> I'm sure you are an excellent engineer so please do not take offense. It
> takes years of experience to develop the expertise required to be a good
> PCB designer.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mario Irigoyen
> MPC Engineering
> [log in to unmask]
>
> [log in to unmask] Message-----
> From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> Joseph Matthews
> Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 5:50 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [DC] Designing PCB footprints
>
> Greetings,
>
> As a hardware engineer I have been tasked with laying out my first real
> circuitboard in years (first *real* board I guess). It's proved a bear.
> With years of experience designing hardware I am totally unprepared for
> the leap from the "logical" into the "physical" at this stage in my
> career. No less, I am under a crunch (as we all are, right?) and this
> being a fairly simple board, I figured it's time I dove in and
> learned...Simply stated, I'm stumped. Where can I find a comprehensive,
> clearly defined explaination on how to create *quality* PCB footprints
> and/or what the terms are used by the Footprint calculator made by PCB
> Libraries. I see all of these fields to enter information but I'm not
> sure what these mean and how to translate what's on the datasheet to
> these fields.
>
> I have read through a few of the IPC standards (some of the 122x stuff)
> and still can't say I undertsand much more of what's required. Is there
> a more comprehensive standard or something that more clearly deliniates,
> "do this...don't do this"...or, "if the pad is this big on the
> datasheet, add n%". These standards seem fairly high-level and at times
> seem almost circular. No less, they are not totally specific and I'm
> not sure where I can get the very specific information. I of course am
> aware that there's probably more to it than simply adding a bit here or
> a bit there, but assuming I know nothing, can someone offer some
> straight-forward advice on how to build up a board. Nothing fancy, just
> the basics. I should be smart enough to take it from there.
>
> I hate to inundate people with how-to's but everything I've read,
> including a book on the fundamentals of PCB layout seems very high-level
> and seem almost afraid to say anything for certain.
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
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