Yes, Brian, but if it weren't for the dreamers we probably would never have made it to the moon.
Blair
>>> [log in to unmask] 12/19/04 04:28AM >>>
Maybe the IPC should have a "dream-on..." netlist for posts such as this :-)
Brian
Taheri, Kamran wrote:
> Since we are still on the subject of fuel, I thought the article on this web-site be interesting to read.
> http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/helium3_000630.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Brian Ellis
> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 2:42 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] DI Water
>
>
> Ah-hah! You have fallen straight into the trap! Electrolysers to produce
> hydrogen MUST work 24/7 to achieve their rated efficiency, so what
> happens when the wind drops or the sub goes behind a cloud? You have to
> wait a week for full efficiency to be restored. The solar/wind systems
> must therefore be backed up by conventional generation, such as
> polluting coal or nuclear.
>
> Then, just imagine that all the cars in the USA, in 20 years were
> running on hydrogen into fuel cells (yes, it needs a vivid imagination,
> as there isn't nearly enough platinum in the world to catalyse those
> fuel cells), have you thought how much electricity would be required to
> electrolyse the hydrogen and how much fresh water? Well, you would have
> to more than double and less than triple ALL the present generation and
> grid capacity, assuming the cars were of modest size (no Hummers or
> SUVs). The 2002 installed production capacity is 848.3 GW. Let's take a
> round figure of 1200 GW of new capacity for electrolysis. An average
> state-of-the-art wind turbine of 3 MW capacity runs at an average of 12%
> capacity in a suitable windy position onshore or 15% offshore. Let's be
> optimistic and say the average real-time capacity is 0.6 MW, to allow
> for technological advances. To generate enough H2 to run all those
> hypothetical cars would therefore require 1200 x 1000/0.6, so you would
> need 2,000,000 such wind turbines, all backed up by an equivalent
> capacity of conventional power (coal, gas or nuclear) for when the wind
> stops blowing. Solar? A typical efficiency is 150 W/mē. If installed in
> the sunniest spot of the US (NM desert), this extra capacity would
> require 1200 x 1000/(150 x 1E-6) mē of panels = 8 trillion mē at, say
> $100 each (the present price is ~$300/mē, but I'm allowing for economy
> of scale), without installation costs. Of course, this assumes the sun
> will shine 24/7/52, which is slightly far-fetched. Now, 8,000 kmē of
> panels requires roughly 2.5 times the space of horizontal surface to
> avoid shadowing and to allow access for maintenance etc, so we need
> 20,000 kmē of land. Not counting the land for access roads, power
> distribution and so on, this is about 1/15th of the whole of NM. This
> would be quite a monumental achievement.
>
> The overall cost of producing hydrogen per unit energy produced from
> wind/solar, when used, is roughly 20-30 times that of burning gasoline
> or diesel. So, if today's price for a gallon of gas is $2, you will be
> paying $40-60 for the equivalent amount of propulsive energy with your
> fuel cell car. It is a pipe-dream. (I agree, it is a lot cheaper
> producing hydrogen from natural gas, but the supplies are limited, as
> the US is already a net importer, and to do would involve massive
> emissions of CO2, which is inadmissible.)
>
> So please come down to earth.
>
> Finally, this link is relative to the small island on which I live, but
> the arguments are the same: http://www.cypenv.org/Files/hydrogen.htm -
> you will find a number of other pages which may be of interest.
>
> Brian
>
>
>
> Brooks,Bill wrote:
>
>>Hydrogen can be made by separating it from water leaving the 2 components, 2
>>molecules of Hydrogen and one molecule of oxygen.
>>This process is called electrolysis...
>>
>>http://www.nmsea.org/Curriculum/7_12/electrolysis/electrolysis.htm
>>
>>It can be done without pollution at all... using solar or wind power.
>>
>>Best regards,
>>
>>Bill Brooks - KG6VVP
>>PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I.
>>Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
>>e-mail:[log in to unmask]
>>http://www.dtwc.com
>>http://pcbwizards.com
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Brian Ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 4:13 AM
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: [TN] DI Water
>>
>>And, please, tell me how you are going to produce hydrogen in sufficient
>>purity and quantity to run a relatively low-efficiency device like a
>>fuel cell? AND ensure that there is no pollution in the process? The
>>much-vaunted fuel cell for, e.g., large-scale car use can never be. It
>>is being developed purely as a magnet for governmental funding.
>>
>>If you wish to discuss this in more detail, I propose we shift the
>>debate to the EnviroNet.
>>
>>I never proposed mixing the H2 and O2 to produce BANG. There are a
>>number of ways of non-explosively combining the two gases safely, the
>>simplest being a straightforward hydrogen flame.
>>
>>Brian
>>
>>Indrek Rebane wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hi Brian,
>>>
>>>Brian Ellis wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>No way. Producing PURE H2 and PURE O2 to produce PURE water would be
>>>>horrendously expensive, energy consuming and polluting.
>>>
>>>
>>>Not so, pure water would be a by-product of discharging the fuel-cell.
>>>(Ability to store solar energy for winter time anyone?)
>>>
>>>But by just mixing hydrogen and oxygen near fire:
>>>2H2+O2 => 2H2O + BANG!
>>>
>>>Indrek
>>>
>>>--
>>>Indrek Rebane | Borthwick-Pignon
>>>Electronics Engineer | Tartu Science Park
>>>Phone: (+372) 7 302 641 | Riia 185, 51014 Tartu
>>>Fax: (+372) 7 383 041 | Estonia
>>>[log in to unmask] | www.bps.co.ee
>>>
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