I want to know why the electronic versions of the specs are so much more
than the printed versions. Everywhere else it is the opposite. Do the
electronic version have special linking or search abilities beyond a
regular acrobat or what?
Dee
At 04:15 PM 7/22/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>O.K. BILL,
>Next time you can have the milkshake with lunch and I'll buy.
>
>Leslie
>-----Original Message-----
>From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>Brooks,Bill
>Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 3:27 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: [DC] FW: "cannot afford to pay for knowledge..."
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Brooks,Bill
>Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 3:23 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: "cannot afford to pay for knowledge..."
>
>Jim...
>
>Let's take a step back a moment... your comment resonates with me...
>And your point of view is not uncommon... we all have had to scratch out
>a
>job from an opportunity given us by someone who had enough faith in our
>ability to give us the chance to learn and deal with the concepts and
>parameters needed to perform this design task called "PCB design".
>
>Let me guess, statistically, you are over 40 and have been designing
>boards
>for 20 years or more. That's true of 90 percent of the board designers
>out
>there. That means that you more than likely had to work with the
>mil-std-275
>and mil-p-13949 and dod-std-100 if you were pushing a drafting pencil or
>using an xacto-blade and a light table anytime in your career.
>
>Those specs were developed in a very similar manner to the IPC specs. In
>fact Mil-STD-275 was commissioned by the military and IPC was the
>organization that did the job for them. IPC is a non-profit standards
>organization. They are made up of volunteers from industry, members who
>contribute their free time to the betterment of the industry as a whole.
>Without the IPC you would not have that "0.0002 in. per volt" reference
>to
>figure out your designs. You would have to resort to experimentation and
>the
>R&D costs associated with it. Those costs are not trivial as you can
>probably imagine.
>
>I share your view of the 'cost ' of purchasing specs. Believe me... I
>used
>to really get fumed over the cost associated with the purchase of any
>specs.
>I felt it was unfair and 'railed against the machine' of the IPC for
>extorting the vast millions that they must be making off the measly thin
>paper documents that anyone could copy at Kinko's Copy store for about 2
>bucks.
>
>It's funny how things can change... I had to buy a book recently that
>covered the specs for Screws and Fasteners... Published and authored by
>the
>Industrial Fasteners Institute in 1988. Inside the cover on the
>Acknowledgements page, it lists all of those who contributed to the
>creation
>of the Fasteners Standard Book and it chronicles a long list of Members
>of
>different organizations that made the book possible. ASTM, SAE, ASME,
>the
>Standards committee, several individuals that organized, managed and
>edited
>the document, and Richard B. Belford, who contributed his knowledge of
>35
>years in the industry to make the book.
>
>I valued the information in that book and paid 100 dollars for it, (not
>my
>employer). Some percentage of that money I paid will go to the
>publisher,
>and some of it goes back to the organization that helped make it
>possible to
>publish. I can benefit from their passed on knowledge, every time I
>design
>something that requires my referencing and incorporating it into my
>work. So
>I am capitalizing on their successes in research and development and
>their
>efforts to get that information out to me and other designers like me.
>
>If you look at the whole picture, the cost of the book is very small by
>comparison and a very good investment in my future. In fact, if I am an
>independent businessman, and consulting, I can take the cost of that
>book
>off my taxes as an educational business expense. So the cost to me is
>really
>nothing if you think about it.
>
>It has taken me some time to realize, but I think I get it now, that the
>investment in specs to make my work more standardized is an investment
>in my
>earning ability and competence as a designer... And I am willing to
>forgo a
>few hamburgers and milkshakes a week to invest in myself. I benefit
>myself
>by making that effort. And I invest in my career.
>
>IPC can't make the all the information available to us all for free,
>they
>wouldn't be able to fund their current R&D efforts to make the next
>specs
>that are currently under development... They would fall apart as an
>organization and benefit no body.
>
>Granted, they CAN and DO make some of the specs available to PCB
>designers
>at a discount, IF they become Designers Council members. That's all part
>of
>the deal... as a member you will be exposed to opportunities to advance
>your
>career, and educate yourself about parts of the industry that can
>benefit
>you and your company, they might even ask you to help out, or contribute
>something of your time in order to help others. That's all part of
>paying it
>forward... and passing the favor on.
>
>The DC offers a 50% off discount on some very KEY specs that you and I
>and
>other Designers need to do our jobs well. Member designers, like myself
>and
>others, have lobbied for those discounts to help our fellow designers to
>get
>access to those specs. Why not check it out yourself and see if I am
>blowing
>smoke... http://www.ipcdesignerscouncil.org/
>
>GO to the website and check out the offers for Designers Council
>members.
>
>http://www.ipcdesignerscouncil.org/DCmembership/DiscDocs4DCMembers.pdf
>
>
>
>You can essentially become a member for FREE. All you have to do is pay
>50
>dollars for a yearly membership and they give you a coupon back for 50
>dollars... to spend on the IPC specs you need anyway... Along with the
>50%
>off that members get it adds up to a great deal of savings... Then take
>them off your itemized business expenses at the end of the year a you
>basically get them for FREE too!
>
>How can you beat that?
>
>I use my copies of the specs all the time. And I continue to invest in
>my
>career by attending classes and seminars, and purchasing books and
>materials
>needed to do my job. I recommend that course of action highly for any
>designer that wants to be able to stay employed in this market.
>Education is
>the key... and all you have to do is reach out and make the effort to
>invest
>in yourself.
>
>The IPC is not being run by 'Darth Vader' or the 'Evil Empire'...
>WE, the designers who are contributing to the industry, are helping to
>steer
>it, and advise it, and mold the policies that make it what it will
>become...
>You can be a part of that too.
>
>I can't encourage you enough, get involved in the Designers council and
>help
>us make a difference. It's your career that stands to gain... who best
>to
>see it through but you! Reach out and make that investment in yourself.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Bill Brooks
>PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I.
>Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
>http://pcbwizards.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jim Grasty [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 1:28 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: [pcdlist] Re: Thanks
>
>Okay, now I am an even bigger screw up than anyone knew before. You
>should
>always be okay with the 0.0020"/volt spacing. The 0.00012"/volt is for
>coated designs. My point was (that I didn't make too well) that I've
>always
>used 0.00012"/volt, and never had any problems. Sorry for the confusion.
>My
>"of course..." was to be talking about paying the IPC for what should be
>basic scientific knowledge. I'm sure that Jack Olson saw the chart, that
>he
>scammed, for the first time in an ancient Bishop Graphics Catalog. Many
>of
>us (ie. independent consultants) cannot afford to pay for knowledge that
>is
>hoarded by bureaucrats that don't actually work for a living. We are
>looking
>at "outsourcing" to Southeast Asia and India that interfere with our
>ability
>to raise families. I can't retire- I have to work until I die. Please,
>when
>we have a question, just give us the answer, not the relevant IPC
>Section/Paragrap/Line Item. Good for you, you have a job with medical
>insurance. Hurray! We just want to know how better to do our jobs so
>that we
>can get people to pay us money in order to survive...
>
>Best, J.G.
>
> >Doug,
> > I have used 0.00012" per volt forever, and never had a design fail UL
>(or,
> >as far as I know, kill someone). The 0.0020"/volt "coated" has always
> >bothered me. Coated with solder mask, potting, vacuum military
>conformal
> >($$$) crap? So I just use the 0.00012"/volt, and that has been good...
>Of
> >course, if you want UL approval, you should hire the right law firm
>that
> >specializes in that certification- it's a slam dunk whatever design
>rules
> >you follow if you have the money. If it's your own personal safety that
> >you're concerned for (or even people that you don't know but still care
> >about), use the 0.00012"/volt rule. Watch out for metal leads bent
>around
>in
> >the air, exposed PCB vias, and "around the board edge" dimensions, then
>POT
> >the WHOLE THING and cross your fingers. Most SMD devices rated for a
> >particular (high) voltage do not pass the requirement (with their
>required
> >pad pattern)- put a hole/slot in the PCB to help... There is some very
> >interesting stuff on the internet about high voltage phenomenon. Very
>high
> >voltage is just as magic as analog designs that work/don't work
>depending
>on
> >where you put your finger... Of course
> >
> >Best, J.G.
> >
> >>Thanks.
> >>
> >>Doug
> >>
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