Brian,
From your keyboard to Gods computer!!!
David A. Douthit
Manager
LoCan LLC
Brian Ellis wrote:
> David
>
> It would be nice if combat situations no longer existed, then these
> problems would not occur :-)
>
> Yours from Utopia,
>
> Brian
>
> David Douthit wrote:
>
>> Bruce,
>>
>> I am dismayed at this approach allowed by management. We are not talking
>> about
>> computers or MP3 players here. This is a combat, harsh environment,
>> lives on the line
>> situation.
>>
>> I have seen far to many field problems from hardware that "has passed
>> all levels of military qual testing including ballistic shock, vibe and
>> all environmental scenarios (these occur every 100 units)."
>>
>> The concept of justifying your position with the statement, "In
>> addition, I have yet to see a card returned from the field (whether it
>> be the US or Iraq) where this part has been called into question.",
>> requires
>> the ability to put at risk the lives and missions of combat personnel. I
>> find this to be an unacceptable
>> position. Not only do those boards need to be replaced with properly
>> designed and built units but the
>> person and/or persons that authorized this should be relieved of their
>> positions.
>>
>> Their are more than enough risks in combat situations. Do not add to
>> them!!!
>>
>> David A. Douthit
>> Manager
>> LoCan LLC
>>
>> =================================
>>
>>> But Bill, I agree with your assessment. I think we would have been
>>> better
>>> off with a board re-spin. And I also agree, dead bugs "should" only
>>> be for
>>> prototypes and development. Part of the problem with this board was
>>> it was
>>> first brought into production in 1997. Since that time we here at GD
>>> have
>>> taken great strides to institute a better DFM process. Now if this was
>>> designed for prototype phase, we would push for, and get in almost all
>>> cases, a redesign to remove not only dead bugs but any cuts and jumps
>>> that
>>> also might be needed to make the first boards work. Like you said
>>> though,
>>> you have to work slowly to bring the military into new technology. I
>>> still
>>> get asked every time a board is going through design if we can install
>>> different parts such as BGA's. I'm bringing them along but sometimes
>>> it's
>>> a slow process.
>>>
>>> Bruce Stilmack
>>> GDLS-TO Manufacturing Engineer
>>> (850) 574-4773
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Kasprzak,
>>> Bill (sys) To: [log in to unmask]
>>> USX" cc:
>>> <bkasprzak@MOO Subject: Re: [TN] Dead Bugs
>>> G.COM>
>>> Sent by:
>>> TechNet
>>> <[log in to unmask]
>>> RG>
>>>
>>>
>>> 06/19/2004
>>> 08:17 AM
>>> Please respond
>>> to "TechNet
>>> E-Mail
>>> Forum.";
>>> Please respond
>>> to "Kasprzak,
>>> Bill (sys)
>>> USX"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bruce,
>>>
>>> I'm very familiar with the various reasons why your board was never
>>> upgraded. (In the military business, it's typically, ".... because we
>>> qualified the system with the 'dead bug'.")
>>>
>>> I'll still contend that a board redesign and a delta qual would still be
>>> cheaper than installing the 'dead bug' 800 times and counting.
>>>
>>> Tell me you're not attaching wires to the resistor pak. This is nuts.
>>>
>>> 'Dead Bugs' should only be intended for development, prototypes and
>>> small
>>> production orders (<50 pcs).
>>>
>>> Bill Kasprzak
>>> Moog Inc., Systems Group, Process Engineer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Bruce D Stilmack wrote:
>>
>>> But Bill, I agree with your assessment. I think we would have been
>>> better
>>> off with a board re-spin. And I also agree, dead bugs "should" only
>>> be for
>>> prototypes and development. Part of the problem with this board was
>>> it was
>>> first brought into production in 1997. Since that time we here at GD
>>> have
>>> taken great strides to institute a better DFM process. Now if this was
>>> designed for prototype phase, we would push for, and get in almost all
>>> cases, a redesign to remove not only dead bugs but any cuts and jumps
>>> that
>>> also might be needed to make the first boards work. Like you said
>>> though,
>>> you have to work slowly to bring the military into new technology. I
>>> still
>>> get asked every time a board is going through design if we can install
>>> different parts such as BGA's. I'm bringing them along but sometimes
>>> it's
>>> a slow process.
>>>
>>> Bruce Stilmack
>>> GDLS-TO Manufacturing Engineer
>>> (850) 574-4773
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Kasprzak,
>>> Bill (sys) To: [log in to unmask]
>>> USX" cc:
>>> <bkasprzak@MOO Subject: Re: [TN] Dead Bugs
>>> G.COM>
>>> Sent by:
>>> TechNet
>>> <[log in to unmask]
>>> RG>
>>>
>>>
>>> 06/19/2004
>>> 08:17 AM
>>> Please respond
>>> to "TechNet
>>> E-Mail
>>> Forum.";
>>> Please respond
>>> to "Kasprzak,
>>> Bill (sys)
>>> USX"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bruce,
>>>
>>> I'm very familiar with the various reasons why your board was never
>>> upgraded. (In the military business, it's typically, ".... because we
>>> qualified the system with the 'dead bug'.")
>>>
>>> I'll still contend that a board redesign and a delta qual would still be
>>> cheaper than installing the 'dead bug' 800 times and counting.
>>>
>>> Tell me you're not attaching wires to the resistor pak. This is nuts.
>>>
>>> 'Dead Bugs' should only be intended for development, prototypes and
>>> small
>>> production orders (<50 pcs).
>>>
>>> Bill Kasprzak
>>> Moog Inc., Systems Group, Process Engineer
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 6:38 AM
>>> To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.; Kasprzak, Bill (sys) USX
>>> Subject: Re: [TN] Dead Bugs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We have been installing one dead bug SMT resistor pak on one of the main
>>> electronic control boxes for the M1A1 SEP tanks since the beginning of
>>> the
>>> production cycle. In this case a change was needed to make the board
>>> functional, yet no one was willing to spring for an entire board layout.
>>> This card and the box it goes into has passed all levels of military
>>> qual
>>> testing including ballistic shock, vibe and all environmental scenarios
>>> (these occur every 100 units). In addition, I have yet to see a card
>>> returned from the field (whether it be the US or Iraq) where this part
>>> has
>>> been called into question. We have built a total of about 800 of these
>>> cards and are continuing to outfit the M!A1 with this box (card).
>>> So the
>>> reliability factor, if installed correctly, is a none issue. That being
>>> said, myself and well as the assemblers hate the fact that we have to
>>> install the part in this fashion. So good reliability can easily be
>>> achieved, but a price is definitely paid in assembly time.
>>>
>>> Bruce Stilmack
>>> GDLS-TO Manufacturing Engineer
>>> (850) 574-4773
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Kasprzak,
>>>
>>> Bill (sys) To: [log in to unmask]
>>>
>>> USX" cc:
>>>
>>> <bkasprzak@MOO Subject: Re: [TN] Dead Bugs
>>>
>>> G.COM>
>>>
>>> Sent by:
>>>
>>> TechNet
>>>
>>> <[log in to unmask]
>>>
>>> RG>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 06/18/2004
>>>
>>> 11:05 AM
>>>
>>> Please respond
>>>
>>> to "TechNet
>>>
>>> E-Mail
>>>
>>> Forum.";
>>>
>>> Please respond
>>>
>>> to "Kasprzak,
>>>
>>> Bill (sys)
>>>
>>> USX"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Joe,
>>>
>>> A couple of obvious things.
>>>
>>> 1) If you have a customer that wants to disallow this for production,
>>> then
>>> he's willing to foot the bill for new board layouts. That's good.
>>>
>>> 2) If it's on the print, that takes precedence over any general rules or
>>> other edicts. Whether allowed or not, you're obligated to make the
>>> parts to
>>> print.
>>>
>>> If "dead bugs" are part of "Production", gosh, I hope the order is very
>>> small. "Dead Bugs" should be limited to development maybe even prototype
>>> work. Otherwise, new board layout is needed.
>>>
>>> You might want to know why they're suggesting this? I'd be curious.
>>>
>>> Good Luck.
>>>
>>> Bill Kasprzak
>>> Moog Inc., Systems Group, Process Engineer
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Kane, Joseph E [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 10:27 AM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: [TN] Dead Bugs
>>>
>>>
>>> We've talked before about implementing design changes with "dead
>>> bug" components, where you turn the part upside down, bond
>>> it to the board surface, and solder wires to the pins.
>>>
>>> Of course, this takes more labor, but sometimes it's useful to
>>> implement a change for a short time while artwork is being updated.
>>>
>>> Now we have a customer talking about disallowing this practice for
>>> production. Anyone have a good reason why dead bugs should be
>>> outlawed? Are there any specs that prohibit this?
>>>
>>> Joe Kane
>>> BAE SYSTEMS Controls
>>> Johnson City, NY
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
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>>
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