Anything from 5 minutes to an hour with a 2-5% solution. It is not
critical. Because it chelates the metal carboxylates, the solution does
become hazardous waste when it is exhausted, though. Most flux
manufacturers make them. My favourite, in the past, was the Lonco
Neutralizer 2051-B3 but I suspect that this fell by the wayside when
Alpha bought out Lonco. However, most major flux manufacturers make
something of the sort. I think the one you see in the video I referred
to was an Alpha Rinse Aid. These are all buffered alkaline solutions
with a pH (working) of 8.5-9, some diNaEDTA but they do not contain
hydroxides or amines. They mostly contain an indicator dye which colours
them blue, turning to colourless when the pH falls.
Brian
Dehoyos, Ramon wrote:
> Brian:
> Two more, how long do you immerse them in the neutralizer? What are the neutralizers that you recommend?
> Regards,
> Ramon
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Brian Ellis [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
>>Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 9:24 AM
>>To: Dehoyos, Ramon
>>Subject: Re: [TN] (2) [TN] OA / RMA
>>
>>I'm opposed to the use of saponifiers with water-soluble fluxes. They
>>are as difficult to remove as the flux itself and just as dangerous. As
>>I intimated elsewhere, a chelating neutraliser in a hold bath, before
>>washing, may be advantageous. A saponifier is an aggressive chemical
>>designed to solubilise insoluble carboxylic acids, such as rosin, by
>>turning them into a soap. As, by definition, water-soluble fluxes don't
>>normally contain insoluble carboxylic acids, what is the point of using
>>yet one more aggressive chemical to do something it cannot do, with the
>>additional risk of its precipitating metal salts because of its high pH????
>>
>>Brian
>>
>>Dehoyos, Ramon wrote:
>>
>>> Brian:
>>> Based on your experience, is there a need for a saponifier in the cleaning of OA fluxes to ascertain residue removal from difficult parts to clean such as low BGAs and flip chips?
>>> Regards,
>>> Ramon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Brian Ellis [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 7:33 AM
>>>>To:
>>>>Subject: Re: [TN] (2) [TN] OA / RMA
>>>>
>>>>YES!!!! Bingo!
>>>>
>>>>Brian
>>>>
>>>>Graham Naisbitt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Brian
>>>>>
>>>>>Thank-you for that information, it is most helpful albeit a little late for
>>>>>the customer in question - 1998!
>>>>>
>>>>>...but let me get this straight - the residues of an OA flux (some or all?)
>>>>>will serve to lower the ST sufficiently to assure good cleaning performance,
>>>>>yes?
>>>>>
>>>>>Graham Naisbitt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Sorry, Graham, but I insist. The residues of the flux itself contains a
>>>>>>large excess of surfactants which lower the surface tension of the wash
>>>>>>water to ~25-30 dyne-cm. Most saponifier solutions have an ST of 30-35
>>>>>>dyne-cm. The only effect that saponifiers would have is to replace the
>>>>>>acid residues with equally corrosive alkaline ones. It's a waste of time
>>>>>>and money adding saponifiers. Furthermore, if your wash cycle contains
>>>>>>saponifier, you must have a second water-only wash cycle before the
>>>>>>rinse starts, to wash off the saponifier residues. Not all machines
>>>>>>permit this. What I said in my previous message still stands.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A pre-rinse in a chelating neutraliser (which is NOT a saponifier),
>>>>>>BEFORE washing is beneficial. This can be in a static hold tank. This is
>>>>>>a time proven method. This is demonstrated in the streaming video at
>>>>>>http://www.protonique.com/video/ (this is quite old and the components
>>>>>>are BIG, but the principle is still valid).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Brian
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Graham Naisbitt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hello Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I knew I shouldn't have.....but can't help myself......
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I agree with you, but what I am referring to is the use of a closed-loop
>>>>>>>pure water 'OA' type process where no chemistry is used only pure water.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Surfactants to my knowledge are not used in isolation, saponifiers (soaps)
>>>>>>>will be needed as well, and make sure the surfactant has excellent
>>>>>>>rinseability (silicone base is not a good thing in this instance). Whatever,
>>>>>>>it is wash chemistry and there will be an effect on the life of the filter
>>>>>>>beds and the transfer of wash 'chemistry' getting into the rinse zone(s).
>>>>>>>Clearly the use of saponifiers that generally have to include surfactants
>>>>>>>for that very reason, require a somewhat more complex cleaning system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>From my perspective, the pure OA approach, as Brian alluded to in his reply,>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>isn't adequate to ensure thorough cleansing on high density low stand-off
>>>>>>>devices.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>...ah! That perennial question: How clean is clean?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Graham Naisbitt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hello Graham: I have to disagree with your statement regarding the need for
>>>>>>>>saponification to get under low standoff components. The need was to reduce
>>>>>>>>surface tension which can be achieved with a surfactant. With a surfactant
>>>>>>>>the surface tension of the wash water is lowered allowing it under low
>>>>>>>>standoff components to flush out OA flux residues. It also does not leave
>>>>>>>>behind the saponifier chemistry.
>>>>>>>>Saponification is quite a different animal than a surfactant. The saponifier
>>>>>>>>converts non water soluble residues to hydrophilic or water soluble ones.
>>>>>>>>The saponifier typically has a surfactant as part of it's make up to allow
>>>>>>>>better wetting or penetration but contains other components if not rinsed
>>>>>>>>that can be detrimental to the electrical performance of the assembly. The
>>>>>>>>obvious advantage of the saponifier is that it will remove other
>>>>>>>>contaminates on the PCA besides the flux that are not water soluble.>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>With that said we do use a saponifier but have very good process control on
>>>>>>>>the types and angles of our spray nozzles in wash and rinse. Along with
>>>>>>>>increasing temperature through the various rinse stages to facilitate the
>>>>>>>>complete flushing and removal of the saponifier.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Just a clarification as sometimes these two terms saponifier and surfactant
>>>>>>>>are used interchangeably.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Regards
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Michael Barmuta
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Staff Engineer
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Fluke Corp.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Everett WA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>425-446-6076
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>From: Graham Naisbitt [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 5:41 AM
>>>>>>>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [TN] OA / RMA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I must be mad sending this to challenge The Oracle himself but....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The real beauty of the OA process is that it required only water - as
>>>>>>>>distinct from Aqueous Process where Water Soluble, or some would say Water
>>>>>>>>Washable fluxes were used that required some cleaning chemistry.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Aqueous processes I always thought of as a misnomer and that it should be
>>>>>>>>called Semi-Aqueous - ergo water only v water plus chemistry.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>However, the drawback with the Water Only approach is that it proved to be
>>>>>>>>inadequate for some of the newer low stand-off devices such as micro-BGA,
>>>>>>>>flip-chip and some of the smaller discreets <0604. Saponification had to
>>>>>>>>added in order, not only to get under such devices but, more importantly, to
>>>>>>>>get the darned stuff out from underneath including the "dissolved"
>>>>>>>>contaminants.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>IMHO - Graham Naisbitt
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I installed the first OA (misnomer, WS is better) full scale
>>>>>>>>>wave-soldering production line in Switzerland (if not in Europe) as long
>>>>>>>>>ago as 1965. The company in question is still using it,four soldering
>>>>>>>>>machines later. I have since aided in many others, throughout the world.
>>>>>>>>>Advantages of WS:
>>>>>>>>>- better quality soldering with fewer rejects
>>>>>>>>>- more tolerant of poorly solderable components
>>>>>>>>>- widest operating window
>>>>>>>>>- no expensive cleaning products
>>>>>>>>>- minimal pollution from overall process
>>>>>>>>>- lowest production costs
>>>>>>>>>Disadvantages:
>>>>>>>>>- requires good process control
>>>>>>>>>- unforgiving of errors
>>>>>>>>>- good quality cleaning equipment rarer than you think
>>>>>>>>>- flux itself is fairly corrosive
>>>>>>>>>Summary:
>>>>>>>>>- requires a serious approach and qualification
>>>>>>>>>- with this proviso, this is the way to go.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Brian
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Dehoyos, Ramon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Technetters:
>>>>>>>>>> Has anybody done a comparison study of RMA/OA fluxes for
>>>>>>>>>>wavesolder? Or any personal experiences in this regard will be
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>appreciated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks in Advance
>>>>>>>>>> Ramon
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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