Ryan,
I agree with you 100%. Could not have said it better myself.
Eric
-----Message d'origine-----
De : TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] De la part de Ryan Grant
Envoyé : 3 novembre, 2003 18:29
À : [log in to unmask]
Objet : Re: [TN] RE : [TN] BGA lighting adjustment
Greg,
I agree with Royce that GSM software was not very capable when BGA ball
pitch varied; and GSM was not very friendly about upgrading the software
for free. In the low margin business of CM's, they are probably pretty
resistant to spending $10K to $20K to upgrade software and camera unless
they absolutely have to. And if they can pass the charge onto the
customer, all the better. On the other hand, you can always play
hardball and tell them that since they are not "capable", you can't send
them any more business.
But, I think the best bet is to establish a working partnership with the
CM. With you helping them develop capability and them supporting your
needs without sneaky business practices. If this can't be found with
the current CM, well, there are hundreds of other CM's to choose from.
However, keep in mind a partnership is a two way street. If your
company is sneaky in your dealing with the CM, they will drop you like a
hot potato when the industry picks up because you will be an
"unprofitable" customer sucking up precious line time that can be used
for more "profitable" customers.
Ryan Grant
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Taylor, Royce
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 1:31 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] RE : [TN] BGA lighting adjustment
While I don't think you should be charged, I do remember working with
Teradyne BGA connectors that had each row of balls 1/2 pitch offset from
the previous row. At the time (2 years ago) the software on GSM's was
not very capable of recognizing this connector (the connector body was
white). It could be that your CM needs to upgrade the software (and/or
cameras)...
The CM should have checked out this part previously and let you know
about the possible issues...
just my opinion...
Royce
***********************************************************************
Royce Taylor
Automation Engineering/Production
Suntron Corporation NEO
104 Glenn Street
Lawrence, MA 01843
(978) 747-2061 voice
(978) 747-2010 fax
[log in to unmask]
www.suntroncorp.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Gervascio [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 3:19 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] RE : [TN] BGA lighting adjustment
Sounds like they're charging you to resolve their P&P programs. THat
would be like charging the customer who running their product when the
machines went down.
>>> [log in to unmask] 11/01/03 08:01AM >>>
I don't think we would charge for this. You paid for it up front,
period.
Charles
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Parke [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 3:23 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] RE : [TN] BGA lighting adjustment
Eric,
This is not an ECO. This board is a new board just introduced to our
CM. We did pay a standard NRE charge to cover P&P programming, tooling,
etc. Once the part was on the machine and running or getting ready to
run, the CM started having trouble with the lighting of the camera. It
took them 2 hours to get it right and now they are asking us to pay for
the 2 hours of line time that was lost in order to set it up properly.
My opinion is that this should be covered by the initial NRE charges.
If it was a revision change or modification then I agree that the CM
would charge some amount to cover the changes. This is not the case
here.
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Laroche [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:20 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [TN] RE : [TN] BGA lighting adjustment
Happy Halloween to all!!
It seems fair to charge a standard initial tooling price. But if I
understand the original statement, this is a new part added to an
existing board. Steve, after you have charged the tooling cost, how do
you handle changes to the board? Essentially, every part of the process
has to be changed or modified with the revision change. Isn't it fair
in this case for the CM to charge the customer for these modifications?
Eric
-----Message d'origine-----
De : TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] De la part de Steve Gregory Envoyé
: 31 octobre, 2003 11:18 À : [log in to unmask]
Objet : Re: [TN] BGA lighting adjustment
Hi Greg!
They're charging YOU time to create a vision database to place a part on
a board they're building for you? WOW!
I gotta say, in the 17-yrs. that I've been in contract manufacturing,
that's the first time I've ever heard of that...
We do have a flat NRE charge for initial P & P programming and tooling,
but that includes everything, i.e.; Stencils, vision programs for
placement, color coded production aids, screen printer programs, reflow
oven and wave solder recipes, rework recipes if we need them, ect.,
ect...
But to have itemized charges for each and every individual facet of the
programming needed for manufacturing? Getting a little anal if you ask
me...
-Steve Gregory-
technetters,
We recently introduced a 516 pin 1mm BGA on one of our latest boards.
Our EMS provider is trying to charge us 2 hours of line time (for a
significant amount of money) for time spent adjusting the lighting on
their GSM cameras. They claim that the non-uniform ball grid layout was
causing recognition errors at placement. It has been a while since I've
worked directly with P&P equipment, but 2 hours of time seems a
ridiculous amount of time to adjust the cameras. Any thoughts?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Gregory Parke
Senior Manufacturing Engineer
Coriolis Networks
330 Codman Hill Road
Boxborough, MA 01719
Voice: 978-264-1904 x651
Fax: 978-264-1909
[log in to unmask]
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