Ramon,
The answer is yes to all 3 with a caveat. Labs will report to whom ever is the "responsible" party.
What happens to the information after that is out of their control.
There also tends to be a lack of "feed back" from customer support and field engineers to the "MEs".
David A. Douthit
Manager
LoCan LLC
"Dehoyos, Ramon" wrote:
> One more thought and I am going to shut up. I am for super clean
> boards, and perfect coating please do not misunderstand me but, many boards
> are digital circuit type require only 0.6 volts signals which is the diode
> turn on voltage. Could that be a reason why not so many problems exist? Or
> is it because dendrites take so long to form that by that time the boards
> are absolete? Or is it because labs do not give MEs feed back about such
> problems?
> Regards,
> Ramon
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David Douthit [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 11:59 PM
> > To: Dehoyos, Ramon
> > Subject: Re: [TN] Silicone conformal coating
> >
> > Ramon,
> >
> > Dendrite growth is a type of corrosion/metal reduction. As such there
> > is very little need for "power". Corrosion is a form of ionized metal
> > migration
> > where moisture combines with contamination/dissimilar metals and creates
> > its
> > own voltage cells.
> >
> > Dendrite formation evolves pico/micro amps of current flow. The resulting
> > dendrites are microscopic and
> > will vaporize with just a few microamps of current.
> > When they are discovered it's usually after several dozen dendrites have
> > formed
> > and vaporized
> > in the same location. The most notable situation is when high impedence
> > very
> > slow logic lines are involved
> > (such as reset or interrupt lines). An unknown reset or interrupt is
> > generated
> > and cannot be duplicated.
> > After numerous attempts and repeated resets/interrupts it's time to get
> > the SEM
> > or high power (200+) microscope out
> > and start looking. Sometimes all you find is residue vaporized metal mixed
> > with
> > carbon from damaged laminates.
> > If you are lucky you may find partially formed dendritic paths that have
> > not
> > reached the anode path.
> >
> > In the case of BGA's this is very, very expensive and extraordinary
> > processes
> > are implimented (rigrous cleaning programs)
> > to prevent these problems. These issues are of major concern to the US
> > military
> > because COTS components and circuitry are designed for
> > speed and size reduction and not durability or longevity. Depending on the
> > end
> > use environment it can take 10 or more years for dendrites to form.
> >
> > You are correct that it "takes a certain amount of power" but the amount
> > is
> > very low!
> >
> > David A. Douthit
> > Manager
> > LoCan LLC
> >
> >
> > "Dehoyos, Ramon" wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Hello David:
> > > My degree is in electrical engineering so I understand something
> > > about currents and voltages. Besides voltage you need current. In my
> > > oppinion you need cetain amount of power to start the dendrite
> > formation.
> > > You can hold with your hands the output of a power supply that can
> > produce
> > > hundreds of amps and low voltage or the output of a high voltage and
> > very
> > > low current ( in the pico amps ) power source and not be hurt by it but
> > you
> > > can not hold a power source that can produce 480 volts and a few milli
> > amps
> > > because it can kill you ( one of my neighbors could hold a 240 volt
> > outlet
> > > bare wire that is why I chose 480 V ) I have seen so many boards that
> > are
> > > not cleaned properly. In some cases with hydrolyzed flux on some
> > components
> > > due to the cleaning agent being to weak or the flux not being cleaned
> > > withing the hour or other reasons. . Specially PGA and BGA type of
> > componets
> > > are extra difficult to clean. Also conformal coating the joint of the
> > > previous parts is not easy to accomplish. Yes we spend a lot of effort
> > in
> > > cleaning our boards at the present job, and try our best to conformal
> > coat
> > > but other than dipping the boards in CC as we used to do in a previous
> > life
> > > is nearly imposible to coat every solder joint. Traces could be solder
> > > masked and be taken cared of them that way, but not solder joints. I am
> > > speaking from experiences and not from lab tests that I have made.
> > > My one and a half cent
> > > Regards,
> > > Ramon
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: David Douthit [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 1:37 PM
> > > > To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.; Dehoyos, Ramon
> > > > Subject: Re: [TN] Silicone conformal coating
> > > >
> > > > Ramon,
> > > >
> > > > That is a very poor conclusion! Experiments done by IBM in the 70's
> > > > showed that dendrites would form with as little as .5 VDC bias.
> > > > Further, electrolysis of water can occur with as little as 2 VDC
> > potential
> > > > difference.
> > > >
> > > > The limiting issue is the amount of liquid water present. Corrosion
> > > > engineers consider a
> > > > layer of water molecules 5 deep to be a "liquid" film.
> > > > That is the film will behave chemically the same as bulk liquid water.
> > > > The limitation here is the volume of water in the film. The deeper the
> > > > layer the more
> > > > ions the water can transport. The chemistry that converts water vapor
> > to
> > > > liquid is very complex
> > > > but it does occur on surfaces with as little as 60% RH in the local
> > area.
> > > > Just how long the water is there, the amount of water, and the amount
> > of
> > > > contamination all combine to
> > > > cause several failure modes besides dendrites. There are numerous
> > > > variables involved and
> > > > the testing can be very expensive. But if you are building high
> > > > reliability products this testing is needed.
> > > >
> > > > David A. Douthit
> > > > Manager
> > > > LoCan LLC
> > > >
> > > > "Dehoyos, Ramon" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > After reading carefully the inputs from Per-Erik, Brian and
> > > > others
> > > > > it seems that the biasing between traces is a very important factor
> > in
> > > > > dendrite forming which are unwanted shorts. I know from first hand
> > > > > obsevation that sometimes boards are not cleaned well enough under
> > BGAs,
> > > > and
> > > > > CC under BGAs is done by pure accident in very few cases. So by
> > > > conclusion
> > > > > the traces between BGA balls do not have high enough bias for the
> > > > dendrites
> > > > > to form. Because they are not conformal coated , not cleaned
> > properly in
> > > > > some cases and RMA flux is used.
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Ramon
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Brian Ellis [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 8:21 AM
> > > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [TN] Silicone conformal coating
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Per-Erik
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Unfortunately, I don't have time just now to discuss this further
> > in
> > > > > > detail. I agree with you on most points, but let's not forget that
> > > > > > atmospheric humidity has four components:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - H2O in clumps (mist): this is relatively harmless to coatings as
> > it
> > > > > > wets or sits on the surface, rather than penetrates
> > > > > > - H2O as isolated molecules (true humidity). This penetrates all
> > > > > > polymers ± easily
> > > > > > - H+ as a result of hydrolysis: a very reactive and unstable
> > reducing
> > > > > > gas which can penetrate and react easily with many groups in and
> > under
> > > > > > the coating.
> > > > > > - OH- as a result of hydrolysis: a very reactive and unstable
> > > > oxidising
> > > > > > gas which can penetrate and react easily with many groups in and
> > under
> > > > > > the coating.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The hydrogen radical and hydroxyl group may be just as dangerous
> > as
> > > > H2S
> > > > > > and are ever-present in air, constantly forming and recombining at
> > > > > > random, under the influence of ozone molecules. The hydroxyl
> > group, in
> > > > > > particular, can play havoc with any loosely bonded hydrogen atoms
> > in
> > > > > > organics it comes in contact with, as H-OH is a much stronger bond
> > > > than
> > > > > > H-C (this is why many hydrocarbon vapours have a short atmospheric
> > > > > > residence times: the molecules are literally torn apart by
> > hydroxyls,
> > > > > > during hydrolysis). As the global average tropospheric hydroxyl
> > > > radical
> > > > > > concentration is estimated at 8.1 x 10^5 radicals.cm-3 at any
> > single
> > > > > > moment, this is far from negligible.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I feel this must also be a consideration.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Brian
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tegehall Per-Erik wrote:
> > > > > > > Brian
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What you are saying is that the function of the conformal
> > coating is
> > > > to
> > > > > > act as an impervious barrier against humidity. Thus, a low
> > > > permeability is
> > > > > > crucial and the protection afforded is directly related to the
> > > > > > permeability of the coating. Let's assume to begin with, that
> > > > absorption
> > > > > > of humidity will endanger the reliability of an assembly (which I
> > do
> > > > not
> > > > > > agree with if the cleanliness is adequate). Then, why should
> > > > permeability
> > > > > > be more important than the water absorption level at equilibrium
> > (that
> > > > is,
> > > > > > saturation level)? I guess that many assume that a high
> > permeability
> > > > also
> > > > > > automatically means a high water absorption level but there is no
> > such
> > > > > > relation. Silicone materials have a very high permeability
> > compared to
> > > > > > most other coating materials but it is also a fact that the
> > saturation
> > > > > > level of water is lower for silicone materials than for other
> > > > coatings.
> > > > > > This means that the amount of water absorbed by a silicone coating
> > > > likely
> > > > > > is somewhat higher than for other coatings to beg
> > > > > > in with, but after some time the other coatings will have absorbed
> > > > more
> > > > > > water. Which is then most dangerous, a high permeability or a high
> > > > > > saturation level? As in many other discussions on TechNet, the
> > answer
> > > > is:
> > > > > > It depends. In this case, among other things, on how long it will
> > take
> > > > to
> > > > > > reach saturation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > About ten years ago I did an experiment to prove that
> > permeability
> > > > of a
> > > > > > coating is not crucial for the protection afforded. I coated a
> > comb
> > > > > > pattern on thoroughly cleaned HASL boards with one acrylic, one
> > > > > > polyurethane and one silicone coating and Parylene, each with
> > three
> > > > > > different thicknesses. I then put the boards in a humidity cabinet
> > and
> > > > > > increased the temperature to 85 degree C but without any added
> > > > humidity.
> > > > > > When the temperature had stabilised, the humidity was increased to
> > 85
> > > > %
> > > > > > RH. The surface insulation resistance (or rather interface
> > insulation
> > > > > > resistance in this case) for the comb patterns on the boards
> > coated
> > > > with
> > > > > > the silicone coating decreased instantaneously and almost as fast
> > and
> > > > to
> > > > > > almost the same level as on a non-coated reference board even for
> > > > > > thicknesses of up to 150 um. So you are right, the permeability is
> > > > very
> > > > > > high for silicone coatings and the insulation resistance will be
> > > > affected
> > > > > > and, if that had been important, silicon coatings would be
> > useless.
> > > > How
> > > > > > ever, the results very practically identical for the boards coated
> > > > with
> > > > > > the acrylic and the polyurethane coatings. The SIR decreased a
> > little
> > > > > > slower on the boards coated with Parylene but after about one hour
> > the
> > > > SIR
> > > > > > was on about the same level on a board with 50 um Parylene as on
> > the
> > > > > > boards coated with the other conformal coatings. In fact, after
> > longer
> > > > > > exposure to humidity, the SIR on the Parylene coated boards
> > actually
> > > > > > decreased to the same level as for the noncoated board. That is,
> > it
> > > > > > decreased more for the Parylene coated boards than for the boards
> > > > coated
> > > > > > with the other coatings. These results show that SIR beneath a
> > coating
> > > > is
> > > > > > affected very quickly even when Parylene is used as coating but
> > they
> > > > do
> > > > > > not answer the question how long it will take to reach saturation
> > > > level. I
> > > > > > haven't measured that but the problem with pop-corning of plastic
> > > > > > components shows that epoxy materials pick up quite large amounts
> > of
> > > > water
> > > > > > in a few days, so my guess would be that it is a matter of da
> > > > > > ys before an acrylic or a polyurethane coating has picked up as
> > much
> > > > water
> > > > > > as a silicone coating.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is then a high uptake of water to the level of saturation
> > dangerous?
> > > > Of
> > > > > > course not (under condition that the cleanliness is adequate). If
> > had
> > > > > > been, a coated board would not pass a humidity test.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If the cleanliness is not adequate prior to the application of
> > the
> > > > > > coating, then the situation is different. Hygroscopic
> > contamination
> > > > will
> > > > > > pick up water through the coating and cause blistering and
> > > > electrochemical
> > > > > > migration. I think that you agree that this will also happen if
> > you
> > > > apply
> > > > > > Parylene to a contaminated surface. Electrochemical migration
> > requires
> > > > > > three things to occur; contamination, humidity and a bias. Thus,
> > if
> > > > > > Parylene had been an impermeable barrier against humidity, it
> > would
> > > > not
> > > > > > had been necessary to clean the assembly. I agree that hygroscopic
> > > > > > contamination will be picked up much faster if you have a silicone
> > > > > > coating. But on the other hand, it is only when you have a bias
> > that
> > > > > > electrochemical migration will occur. If heat is generated when
> > the
> > > > > > equipment is used, the assembly will dry up much faster if you
> > have a
> > > > > > coating with high permeability and low moisture uptake. Therefore,
> > a
> > > > > > silicone coating may be preferable under such conditions (although
> > it
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > verified). If heat is not generated, silicone is perhaps not the
> > best
> > > > > > choice (but again it should be verified). In any case, reliability
> > > > problem
> > > > > > due to contamination needs to be solved by improving the
> > cleanliness,
> > > > and
> > > > > > not by finding a coating that will delay failures somewhat.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What is then the function of a conformal coating? It is to
> > eliminate
> > > > the
> > > > > > third factor causing electrochemical migration (and blistering)
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > > surface beneath the coating by preserving a cleanliness that have
> > been
> > > > > > achieved by cleaning prior to application of the conformal
> > coating.
> > > > Thus
> > > > > > it needs to be an impermeable barrier, but towards ionic and
> > > > hygroscopic
> > > > > > contamination from the field environment and not towards humidity.
> > It
> > > > may
> > > > > > also need to protect the circuitry from being in direct contact
> > with a
> > > > > > condensed water film on the assembly. (Thus, air is disqualified
> > as
> > > > > > replacement for a conformal coating.) I have not seen any data of
> > the
> > > > > > permeability of various contaminants in conformal coatings but I
> > guess
> > > > > > that most coating have very low permeability of ionic
> > contaminants.
> > > > > > Organic contaminants may be a problem since they may be absorbed.
> > I
> > > > also
> > > > > > have to admit that if you have corrosive gaseous pollutions such
> > as
> > > > > > hydrogen sulfide, silicone coating is a bad choice since it h
> > > > > > as a high permeability for most gaseous pollutions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Then, why does Parylene generally afford a much better
> > protection
> > > > than
> > > > > > other coatings? It is because it affords better protection against
> > > > > > contamination from the field environment, not because better
> > barrier
> > > > > > properties but because of better sealing properties due to better
> > > > > > coverage. With Parylene, you will get a coating with even
> > thickness on
> > > > all
> > > > > > surfaces, even on the tip of a needle. It is very difficult to get
> > > > good
> > > > > > coverage with other types of coatings since the coverage of
> > protruding
> > > > > > parts such as solder joints and component leads due to
> > gravitation,
> > > > > > surface tension and capillary forces.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Per-Erik Tegehall
> > > > > > > IVF
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
> > > > > > > Från: Brian Ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > > > > Skickat: den 6 september 2003 09:48
> > > > > > > Till: TechNet E-Mail Forum.; Tegehall Per-Erik
> > > > > > > Ämne: Re: [TN] Silicone conformal coating
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Per-Erik
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > An interesting idea. Briefly, you are proposing a more permeable
> > > > coating
> > > > > > > so that humidity can leave, as well as enter. I suggest that if
> > > > these
> > > > > > > conditions apply, then the best coating would be the most
> > permeable.
> > > > > > > Probably 90% or more of electronic assemblies use such a
> > coating. It
> > > > is
> > > > > > > called air. It is extremely successful for the conditions under
> > > > which
> > > > > > > such circuits are normally used. Conformal coating is usually
> > used
> > > > when
> > > > > > > air-coating is unsuitable, for whatever reason. Therefore, we
> > need
> > > > > > > something as far removed from the conditions of air as possible,
> > > > such as
> > > > > > > a theoretically impervious skin. The nearest we have to this in
> > our
> > > > > > > armoury of weapons of mass construction is para-xylylene
> > > > > > > (Paralene/Parylene). This is near-ideal, but expensive and
> > difficult
> > > > to
> > > > > > > apply, so we usually look to other materials. I would suggest
> > that
> > > > > > > acrylics are closest to this ideal, except that they have poor
> > > > > > > temperature and chemical resistances. So the choice, IMHO is
> > either
> > > > air,
> > > > > > > with maximum permeability, or a product with minimal
> > permeability.
> > > > > > > Compromises between the two are probably second-best.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Brian
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tegehall Per-Erik wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >>After having thought a little more on this, I will expound my
> > > > answer. It
> > > > > > >>seems that all assume that high permeability is a bad thing but
> > in
> > > > my
> > > > > > >>opinion it is not that simple and a high permeability may even
> > be
> > > > > > >>preferable. If you have adequate cleanliness on the assembly
> > prior
> > > > to
> > > > > > >>applying the coating, the moisture penetrating the coating will
> > not
> > > > be a
> > > > > > >>problem and the permeability will then not be an issue. It is
> > when
> > > > you
> > > > > > >>have to much hygroscopic and ionic contamination beneath the
> > coating
> > > > > > >>that you may get problem with delamination and electrochemical
> > > > > > >>migration. Even if you use Parylene, quite a lot of moisture
> > will be
> > > > > > >>picked up by hygroscopic contamination beneath it in a few days
> > in a
> > > > > > >>humid environment. If you then turn the euipment on and the
> > board is
> > > > > > >>heated due to power dissipation, it will take much longer time
> > to
> > > > dry up
> > > > > > >>the assembly if you have a coating with low water permeability.
> > And
> > > > it
> > > > > > >>is during this time period electrochemical migration will occur.
> > > > > > >>Therefore, a silicone coating may actually be better than
> > Parylene
> > > > in
> > > > > > >>this case.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>Per-Erik Tegehall
> > > > > > >>IVF
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
> > > > > > >> Från: Tegehall Per-Erik
> > > > > > >> Skickat: den 5 september 2003 08:38
> > > > > > >> Till: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > > >> Ämne: Re: [TN] Silicone conformal coating
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Steve,
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> It depends on what you mean with good moisture resistance.
> > All
> > > > > > >> conformal coatings absorbs moisture but the diffusion rates
> > of
> > > > water
> > > > > > >> in the coatings and the saturation level varies. Water
> > molecules
> > > > > > >> have a high diffusion rate in silicone coatings but the
> > > > saturation
> > > > > > >> level is lower than in most other coatings. Which is to be
> > > > prefered?
> > > > > > >> It probably depend on the application.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> However, a general statement of good moisture resistance, I
> > > > > > >> interpret as that the coating properties are not degraded by
> > > > > > moisture.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Per-Erik Tegehall
> > > > > > >> IVF
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
> > > > > > >> Från: Steve Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > > > >> Skickat: den 4 september 2003 21:35
> > > > > > >> Till: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > > >> Ämne: [TN] Silicone conformal coating
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Hi All!
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I know when you look up properties for Silicone
> > conformal
> > > > > > >> coating, it usually states that it has good moisture
> > > > resistance,
> > > > > > >> but is it really that good?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I've heard that it is somewhat permeable to moisture,
> > that
> > > > if
> > > > > > >> you were worried about moisture, and the assembly were
> > going
> > > > to
> > > > > > >> see the outside environment, you would be better off
> > with an
> > > > > > >> acrylic, or urethane coating.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Any thoughts?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Thanks!
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> -Steve Gregory-
> > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
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Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL)
To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives
Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315
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