Jim

We are not talking about economics but sustainability. The economics
FOLLOW from the issues. If you take almost environmental issue, the
economists - and other naysayers - have wailed loud and clear at its
introduction, saying it would never work etc., etc., etc. After a few
years, it almost inevitably makes sound economic sense and we wonder why
we were so stupid so as not to do it previously. Let me cite just one
example in our industry. When the Montreal Protocol was introduced,
everyone, including the economists, wailed loud and clear that replacing
CFC-113 for defluxing would a) cost a tonne more and b) would cause a
drop of quality. Experience has shown, after 14-2/3 years since the
signature that CFC-113 was stupidly expensive, unnecessary in many cases
and didn't even work very well, compared with most other methods of
defluxing.

OK, this example is not recycling, but there are many examples,
especially in Europe, where "uneconomical" recycling has shown itself
not only to promote sustainability but to be profitable. In the village
where I used to live in Switzerland, we sorted out both industrial and
household waste for recycling aluminium, iron/steel, white, green and
brown glass, paper/cardboard, dry batteries, mineral oils, vegetable
oils, PET bottles, other plastics, electrical equipment and white goods,
garden waste, ash and other household waste. Every single one of these
items was sent for either recovery/recycling or transformation. The
municipality, when this was introduced about 12 or 13 years ago, never
dreamt that it would actually be profitable, but it was, within 2-1/2
years from the start, thanks to the discipline of the inhabitants who
did the main sorting. As a result, the communal taxes in this commune
are amongst the lowest in urban Switzerland. Did you know that the
energy contained in a single polypropylene (you know, that thin, rather
crinkly, plastic) bag, given away in a supermarket, if incinerated, will
keep a 60 W light bulb burning for 10 minutes? Switzerland has a current
(pun only slightly intended) generating capacity of 227 MW from
incinerating non-recyclable household rubbish. I grant you, this is only
a fraction of the total power requirements, but it reduces landfill
requirements by 88%, does not sustain rats and other vermin in landfills
and is a virtually free fuel.

As an engineer, heavily involved in environmental matters for over 25
years, I hate to preach economics to economists, but sustainability
involves a much more holistic approach than just immediate dollars,
pounds or rupees, but the long-term view from cradle-to-grave, sometimes
over decades, even centuries. It includes the enormous health-care costs
engendered by burning fossil fuels as if there were no future - and this
alone costs the taxpayer in every country a bomb far exceeding the cost
of using these same fuels in a less profligate manner, without even
entering into the debate of greenhouse gases. It is our bounden duty, as
citizens of this world, to use our limited resources in the most
sustainable manner possible over the long term: the economic benefits,
which may not be immediately apparent, will follow naturally.

Voila, je l'ai dit :-)

Brian
Jim Smith wrote:
>
> Laura:
>
> And the economist side of me (honed in doctoral studies at the very
> university from which your e-mail originates) screams "Recycling of
> those materials will happen when it makes financial sense. And it will
> make make financial sense when (or if) future generations turn out to
> need those 'precious' resources." Certainly, if the materials are
> needed, those future generations will know exactly where to look whereas
> prospectors continue in demand today.
>
> Meanwhile, there's the issue of how precious those "precious resources"
> will turn out to be a few decades from now. After all, it was just over
> a hundred years ago that gas lighting was the height of technology (and
> it was itself just displacing whale oil).
>
> I'm afraid your argument doesn't have an economic leg on which to stand.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Jim Smith
> Managing Director
> Cambridge Management Sciences, Inc.
> 4285 45th St. S.
> St. Petersburg, FL 33711-4431
> Tel: (727)866-6502 ext. 21
> Fax: (727)867-7890
> eMail: [log in to unmask]
>
> Laura J. Turbini wrote:
> > Gordon and Forum Members,
> >
> > The recycling of the ever burgeoning amount of scrap electronics makes
> > good sense -- not because these electronics will increase lead in
> > drinking water -- but because the recycling will allow reuse of precious
> > metal constituents, reduce the amount of mining for new ore, and
> > preserve more resources for future generations.
> >
> > Laura Turbini
> >
> >     ----- Original Message -----
> >     *From:* Davy, Gordon <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >     *To:* [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >     *Sent:* Friday, July 19, 2002 10:10 AM
> >     *Subject:* [LF] Compulsory Electronics Recycling In The US
> >
> >      This posting is for the interest of US subscribers. Compulsory
> >     recycling of unwanted electronic products is being considered in
> >     state legislatures across the country, so it should not be too
> >     surprising to see that it is now being considered as federal law,
> >     too. Rep. Mike Thompson of California is drafting a bill, ?Computer
> >     Hazardous Waste Infrastructure Program Act? that would require
> >     purchasers of certain electronic devices including computers and
> >     monitors to pay of fee of up to $10. This fee would fund grants to
> >     selected organizations to collect and recycle or offer for reuse
> >     this kind of item so as to keep them out of landfills. It would also
> >     fund a study that would result in an annual report to Congress.
> >     While paying the fee would be mandatory, submitting your unwanted
> >     electronic products to the selected organizations would not. Not yet.
> >
> >     Few people will object to this bill, seeing the ten bucks as too
> >     small an amount to complain about. Once people have gotten used to
> >     the idea that there?s something wrong with dumping used electronics
> >     in landfills, the amount will increase, with not all of the money
> >     going to cover the deficit between operating cost and value of the
> >     end product. Does anyone think I?m wrong in this prediction? Here is
> >     the letter that I sent to Rep. Thompson on his draft legislation.
> >
> >     What I have to say is a distinctly minority opinion, one which you
> >     may not have heard, but which I hope you will be willing to
> >     consider, even though Democrats tend to favor environmental
> >     legislation. As you know, the subject of keeping electronic products
> >     out of landfills by encouraging their recycling is being considered
> >     widely. In all these considerations what is taken for granted, with
> >     little or no evaluation, is the notion that electronics going into
> >     landfills is bad for the environment. The focus is entirely on the
> >     ?how? to solve the problem (which I am not interested in), not
> >     ?whether? there really is a problem (which is what I want to
> >     discuss). You might ask yourself if you have ever seen the proof for
> >     this notion, or whether the appeal was simply to your common sense
> >     or intuition. I hope to convince you that it is quite illogical.
> >
> >     Here is my case that there is nothing wrong with the continued
> >     dumping of used TVs, computers, monitors, etc. into landfills, and
> >     hence no need for the proposed legislation.
> >
> >     ·          The claim that is made is that lead in electronic
> >     products in landfills leaches into the ground water and pollutes it,
> >     making it likely that people will increase their exposure to lead in
> >     their drinking water. If this were true, then the proposed fix,
> >     reducing the lead going into land fills would be totally inadequate,
> >     because people have been disposing of lead-bearing waste in
> >     landfills for over a century (starting with lead pipes and lead
> >     paint in demolition debris, then car batteries, later radios and
> >     TV?s, etc.) The lead that is already there would be polluting the
> >     ground water (and cleanups all over the country would be the only
> >     real fix). If it isn?t, then it's only fair to ask whether further
> >     additions would have any noticeable effect. I could also tell you
> >     about a scuba diving school that is conducted ? safely ? in an
> >     abandoned lead mine. You might want to bring this question up with
> >     the proponents to see how they respond.
> >
> >     ·          You can very easily verify whether the organizations
> >     responsible for providing drinking water ? where you live in the
> >     metropolitan DC area or in northern California (or anywhere else) ?
> >     are seeing lead in the water they use as their source. Don?t take my
> >     word for it ? ask them. They will tell you that they see lead at a
> >     few parts per billion, and that it is not increasing. They will tell
> >     you that they control the amount of lead coming out of their
> >     customers? taps by controlling the pH. (In addition, the country has
> >     already passed extensive legislation to ensure that drinking water
> >     is safe.) The reason why there are no significant differences in the
> >     lead in ground water anywhere is simple ? the laws of chemistry are
> >     the same everywhere.
> >
> >     ·          You can check with the people responsible for running
> >     landfills to see whether this is an issue they are even aware of.
> >     Don?t assume that the proponents have already done this.
> >
> >     ·          You can also determine the incidence of lead poisoning in
> >     this country (but don?t expect the proponents to have this info for
> >     you). It has been dropping ever since lead was removed from gasoline
> >     a quarter century ago. The cases remaining are not due to lead in
> >     drinking water ? or lead in electronic products. This legislation
> >     would not prevent even a single case of lead poisoning.
> >
> >     ·          Proponents for recycling of electronic products often
> >     present figures of how many thousands of tons of these items go into
> >     landfills each year. Have you ever heard what the percent of
> >     municipal solid waste this represents? The answer is about one
> >     percent, as they will grudgingly acknowledge. The amount of lead in
> >     these products is a small fraction of that. That alone should raise
> >     questions as to the motives of the proponents.
> >
> >     ·          The push for recycling of electronic products is not due
> >     to pure concern for the environment. There are two factors that
> >     would lead proponents to seek this legislation in spite of its not
> >     benefiting the environment: they stand to benefit from the user fees
> >     that would be imposed, or they are supported by contributions from
> >     people who have been led to believe that lead in electronics is a
> >     ?looming crisis? (a favored phrase). Your constituency is interested
> >     in having a safe environment, but also interested in hanging on to
> >     their money, while the proponents of this legislation are interested
> >     in relieving them of it.
> >
> >     ·          For what it?s worth, my motivation is fairly pure: I hate
> >     to see money wasted, and I hate to see these proponents profiting
> >     from their misrepresentation. My background is that I have a Ph.D.
> >     in physical chemistry from the University of California at Berkeley
> >     (1970). My position is a minority opinion not because it is wrong,
> >     but because there is no money to be made ? and not much to be saved
> >     ? in adopting and supporting it. Although it might seem that the
> >     manufacturers of the electronic products affected by the proposed
> >     legislation would oppose the proposal, there are two limiting
> >     factors: a) as long as it is imposed across the board, they will
> >     simply pass the recycling fee along to the consumer (no one of which
> >     has enough of a financial stake to get involved), and b) they face a
> >     risk of being portrayed by the proponents as ?anti-environment? (a
> >     very serious charge) if they object too strenuously. And you face a
> >     choice, too, between taking a stand for the apparent protection of
> >     the environment (popular) or for truth (out of fashion). But I would
> >     argue that this country has enough real problems without diverting
> >     attention ? yours or anyone else?s ? to a fabricated one.
> >
> >     ·          Recycling may seem noble ? the environmentally
> >     responsible thing to do. However, if it has to be subsidized, then a
> >     better term would be ?compulsory recycling?. Since there is no
> >     problem that it solves, it is actually wasteful, because it diverts
> >     resources ? money and time ? that could otherwise be spent on
> >     something better. If electronics recycling didn?t need to be
> >     subsidized ? if it were self-supporting ? it wouldn?t need to be
> >     legislated, either. You couldn?t stop it.
> >
> >     Gordon Davy
> >     Baltimore, MD
> >     [log in to unmask]
> >     410-993-7399
> >
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