Hi Mark,
From the design engineer's perspective, supporting two different formats
does create a problem. When you release a design to production, it is not
supposed to be specific to one particular vendor (unless you have a captive
fab shop and NEVER go outside). Unfortunately, not all fab shops support
ODB++. If purchasing would be willing to limit themselves to fab shops that
supported ODB++, that would be fine, but since that limits their options it
is unlikely. So in order to be universal, we would have to generate both
ODB++ and Gerber. This is easy to do but can create subtle problems that
could take lots of time and money to run down. The problem is how do you
insure that both sets of output data are identical in every way? While some
programs allow you to import both data sets and compare, as a practical
matter, assuring that they are identical is not possible. Since there will
undoubtedly be subtle differences between the two, which one controls?
Don't we also have to verify and validate both versions by building up both
assemblies? And when problems inevitably arise between boards from two
different vendors using different data files, who 'ya gonna call? Those
dumb design engineers who created the problem, of course.
I don't doubt for an instant that ODB++ saves fabricators time and money.
Do we as customers get a significant discount for making the fabricators job
easier with this superior data format? I've asked several fabricators and
no one has agreed yet. This is the part I don't get. Since it will
increase the cost of design to support dual formats for every job, we'd be
irresponsible to do this without concomitant savings. If you really want to
make any of the competing Gerber replacements widely accepted, get a
significant number of fabricators to offer a discount for designs submitted
in that format. Things will take care of themselves very quickly after
that. Purchasing agents will be after designers to provide the new format,
designers will be after EDA vendors to generate the new format and
fabricators who don't support it will be forced to do so rapidly. But
please, just pick one. We don't need to experience the VHS vs. Beta
scenario again.
I would strongly recommend a format that is under the control of an industry
standards-making body rather than a single vendor to discourage
Microsoft-style abuse of competitors, but that is a separate issue. It's
clear that Gerber should be replaced with something smarter that saves us
ALL money, which would be a real win-win situation. But until it saves
money for the fabricators' customers, we'll all be stuck with Gerber and we
all lose.
Regards,
Seth Goodman
Goodman Associates, LLC
tel 608.833.9933
fax 608.833.9966
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Mark Steele
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 4:09 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] ODB++
>
>
> Hi Paul,
>
>
> I work for Toppan Electronics in San Diego, we are a
> fab house.
>
> We strongly prefer ODB data. I tell our Sales people
> to beg for it!
>
> For the past 2 years we have tracked type of data
> (274D, 274X and ODB) and problems with that data such
> as bad aperture lists, missing layers, incorrect
> filename identification, etc, etc, etc.
>
> For example, for the last 226 jobs we have input we had
> 41 issues with gerber, 0 for ODB. That's a lot of phone
> calls and time spent just getting the data INTO our Genesis
> system. We allocate 5 min to get the data and import an
> ODB job, 30-40 for gerber (sometimes it takes hours for
> gerber, that happens about once a month...)
>
> I realize not everyone uses Genesis as their CAM system, but
> I would wager that a majority of the bigger fab houses do.
>
> So, yes, PLEASE generate ODB as a first choice and only send
> out gerber if asked too...
>
> Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong...
>
>
>
> Mark Steele
> CAM Automation Engineer
> Toppan Electronics, Inc.
> 858.695.2222
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> >Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 11:28 AM
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: [TN] ODB++
> >
> >
> >From: Paul M Fly
> >
> >My employer is in the process of buying a couple seats of
> >Valor. Naturally
> >the
> >question should we give our vendors ODB++ rather than Gerber came up. I
> >would
> >be very interested in hearing about some of your experiences in this
> >matter. In
> >particular I would like to hear from some fabricators. How many PCB fab
> >shops
> >really prefer ODB++? I did a quick look at our preferred
> >vendors web site
> >and did not
> >find a word one way or the other.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >************************************
> > Paul Fly
> >
> >Eastman Kodak Company
> >Engineering Technology Center - PEDT
> >2nd Fl. Bld. 205 K.P.
> >2400 Mt. Read Blvd.
> >Rochester, New York 14650-3007
> >Phone: (716) 726-5670
> >Fax: (716) 726-0275
> >E-mail: [log in to unmask]
> >************************************
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
> Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
> To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
> the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
> To temporarily halt delivery of Technet send e-mail to
> [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL
> To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to
> [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
> Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources &
> Databases > E-mail Archives
> Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for
> additional
> information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or
> 847-509-9700 ext.5315
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet
To temporarily halt delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL
To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest
Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases > E-mail Archives
Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional
information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
