You would most likely get a very high number, but I'm not sure what it would tell you.
Assuming that the adhesive is appropriate for the surfaces to be bonded, the most usual cause of
adhesion problems is organic contamination - greases and so on - and they won't show.
Silicones in particular get everywhere; spray drift from a dewatering or release fluid for
example can cause major havoc at surprising distances either directly or indirectly by being
transferred by contact from one item to another. [In this instance a before and after water
break test would be useful.]
Mike
You would most likely get a very high number, but I'm not sure what it would tell you.
Assuming that the adhesive is appropriate for the surfaces to be bonded, the most usual cause of
adhesion problems is organic contamination - greases and so on - and they won't show.
Silicones in particular get everywhere; spray drift from a dewatering or release fluid for
example can cause major havoc at surprising distances either directly or indirectly by being
transferred by contact from one item to another. [In this instance a before and after water
break test would be useful.]
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Totter, James <[log in to unmask]>
To: 'Michael Fenner' <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 8:44 PM
Subject: RE: [TN] How to detect contamination on metal surface
> Has anyone considered ionic contamination testing for this application? You
> might even follow up with an analysis of the testing solution for metals.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Michael Fenner [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 3:27 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] How to detect contamination on metal surface
> >
> > I think perhaps this response may be a little harsh...
> > A water break test is a reasonable test not for the cleanliness of a
> > surface but its ability to
> > be wetted by water.
> > True it is wrong to extrapolate from this to assume that if water can wet
> > the surface then
> > everything else will, also it should be kept in context.
> > Personally I think it is not too bad a guide for paints, some adhesives
> > and so on when used on
> > metal surfaces, especially if it is used before and after cleaning. I
> > agree it is pretty useless
> > for other purposes such as solderability plating and so on.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 4:08 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TN] How to detect contamination on metal surface
> >
> >
> > > Rainer
> > >
> > > I'm sorry, but the so-called water-break test is as useless as the name
> > is long. It is
> > > one of the biggest myths and fallacies that occurs in our industry and
> > should be
> > > drowned in the water required for it and then laid to permanent rest.
> > >
> > > Proofs:
> > > 1) Take some new blown glass, as soon as it cools: it dewets in pure
> > water: therefore
> > > it is contaminated, according to your theory. Wash and rinse it in a
> > household
> > > dishwashing fluid: it wets: therefore it is clean according to your
> > theory. The
> > > difference: some surfactant is contaminating the surface in the second
> > case.
> > >
> > > 2) Take a freshly vacuum deposited copper mirror: it dewets in pure
> > water: therefore
> > > it is contaminated, according to your theory. Leave it lying around for
> > a few days to
> > > nicely oxidise: it wets: therefore it is clean according to your theory.
> > The
> > > difference: the oxidateion is more hydrophilic than the bare metal.
> > >
> > > 3) Vacuum deposit copper on a smooth glass slide and on a piece of
> > heavily frosted
> > > glass (not too thick a deposit though). The smooth glass mirror dewets:
> > therefore it is
> > > contaminated, according to your theory. The rough copper wets:
> > therefore it is clean
> > > according to your theory. In fact, they have identical levels of
> > cleanliness. The
> > > difference: the surface tension of the water holds it in place much
> > better on the rough
> > > surface.
> > >
> > > All these comparisons should be done with the purest water because tap
> > water will
> > > contain an unknown soup of things which will alter the surface tension
> > and therefore
> > > might change the results significantly. In fact, if you study the action
> > of soaps and
> > > detergents, as well as any micellar or non-micellar tensio-active
> > surface agent (which
> > > are found in most water including DI), you will understand that a
> > wetting surface
> > > probably means that the surface has, at some time in its history, been
> > subjected to
> > > such a substance.
> > >
> > > Refs: Surface Phenomena by S.R. Rao, Hutchinson Educational Ltd, ISBN 0
> > 09 112300 3
> > > Any work by K.L. Mittal including his collected Treatise on Clean
> > Surface Technology
> > > Volumes 1 and 2, Plenum Publishing, ISBN 0-306-42420-7
> > > And dare I mention it without getting flamed for publicity?, my own book
> > specifically
> > > for the electronics industry.
> > >
> > > Can we please lay this old red herring to its well deserved and
> > everlasting rest?
> > >
> > > Brian
> > >
> > >
> > > "Blomberg, Rainer (FL51)" wrote:
> > >
> > > > Marvin,
> > > >
> > > > A simple test for cleanliness is what we call the "water break free"
> > test.
> > > > Apply D.I. water to the surface to be tested and observe how well the
> > water
> > > > wets the surface. It should flow out, onto the surface and not bead
> > up
> > > > (like on a waxed surface). As the water flows off the surface, when
> > the
> > > > sample is held vertical, it should sheet off in a thin film and not
> > bead on
> > > > the surface for 5-10 seconds. Another method is to apply a few drops
> > to the
> > > > horizontally held surface and judge the angle the meniscus makes. The
> > > > cleaner the surface, the shallower the angle. As for identifying the
> > > > contamination, we typically use SEM and IR Spectroscopy.
> > > > Hope this helps.
> > > >
> > > > -----Rainer Blomberg
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: marvin v. picardal [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2000 6:34 AM
> > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > Subject: [TN] How to detect contamination on metal surface
> > > >
> > > > Dear Techneters,
> > > >
> > > > I would like to ask some information as to
> > > > how to detect contamination on metal surface and
> > > > how do I determine what type of contamination that is.
> > > > The said contamination results to poor adhesion
> > > > between the glue and the metal surface.
> > > >
> > > > I do hope you would take time in helping me out with this.
> > > > Thank you in advance.
> > > >
> > > > Marvin
> > > >
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