Steve / James,
I've had some encounters with attaboys and awwsh** in the past, but I strive to stay away from them as much as I can. You see, when you get them, management really doesn't care, (that's your job to do good anyway) saving time on something just gets you another job sooner than later, and everyone comes to you for information and help, so there you are... There are more but I think you get the picture... That said, If I don't get attaboys, and a awwsh** removes, it's like the song lyrics say, "nothing from nothing leaves nothing"... :-) I always say, I don't want to be an Expert either, an Ex is a former Has Been and a spurt is a drip under pressure... Stay Safe and Healthy everyone!
Scott Decker | Senior Engineer, PCB Design Services CID+ | Electronic Systems Center
COLLINS AEROSPACE
3445 S. 5th Street, Suite 170, Phoenix, AZ 85040 U.S.A.
Tel: 602 308 5957 FAX: 602 243 2347
[log in to unmask] www.collinsaerospace.com [collinsaerospace.com]
KE7MWT
CONFIDENTIALITY WARNING: This message may contain proprietary and/or privileged information of
Collins Aerospace Systems and its affiliated companies. If you are not the intended recipient please 1) do not disclose, copy,
distribute or use this message or its contents, 2) advise the sender by return e-mail, and 3) delete all copies (including all
attachments) from your computer. Your cooperation is greatly appreciated.
-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of James Jackson, CID
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2020 10:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] [External] [TN] BGA Pin Numbering
Steve,
No - never in the Navy (or any other military service).
I used to work at a local company where the manager handed out attaboys.
I was the recipient of one or two... then was informed about the awwsh**...
I think I was in the negative column on attaboys.
--
Regards,
James Jackson, CID
Oztronics
On 2020-11-05 11:08, Steve Gregory wrote:
> James Jackson, you weren't ever in the Navy were you? Heard the
> Attaboy / Aw sh#t story from the Chief Petty Officers many, many times
> when I was in...
>
> Steve Gregory
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 10:02 AM James Jackson, CID <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>> Scott,
>>
>> RE: Gold Star -
>> I was going to give you an 'attaboy' but have learned in the past
>> that one awwsh**' wipes out 100 attaboys.
>>
>> As for my quest, I fear it has ended before it began. The engineer
>> replied that the client we are doing this for is the originator of
>> the mis-numbered BGA and we aren't going to change it.
>>
>> My next quest will be renumbering a BGA created by Altium's Footprint
>> Wizard. I will be having fun with that. (NOT)
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>>
>> James Jackson, CID
>> Oztronics
>>
>> On 2020-11-05 10:45, Decker, Scott Collins wrote:
>>> James,
>>> Thanks for the Gold Star, I'll place it on my PC with pride... :-)
>>> This question bugged me from yesterday and I knew there was
>>> something, but I just couldn't quite put my finger on it. I thought
>>> about it this morning and told myself it had to be in the Library
>>> Spec since that's the place you build and reference the parts from.
>>> After a couple of search tries, I found the section mentioned.
>>>
>>> As for your engineers, you might want to try the approach we do
>>> here sometimes when an engineer thinks they have a better idea, we
>>> simply ask them if they want to sign off on a deviation from
>>> industry standards and take the risk of having a non-standard item.
>>> After a few minutes, they think about the signing off and
>>> non-standard or deviation from industry standards and before you
>>> know it, they say to just do it like it's called out in the
>>> standard. Most of the time it works but there are those, well, there
>>> are those that are "special"
>>> shall we say... :-) Good luck on your quest...
>>> Later...
>>>
>>> Scott Decker | Senior Engineer, PCB Design Services CID+ |
>>> Electronic Systems Center COLLINS AEROSPACE
>>> 3445 S. 5th Street, Suite 170, Phoenix, AZ 85040 U.S.A.
>>> Tel: 602 308 5957 FAX: 602 243 2347 [log in to unmask]
>>> www.collinsaerospace.com [collinsaerospace.com] KE7MWT
>>> CONFIDENTIALITY WARNING: This message may contain proprietary and/or
>>> privileged information of Collins Aerospace Systems and its
>>> affiliated companies. If you are not the intended recipient please
>>> 1) do not disclose, copy, distribute or use this message or its
>>> contents, 2) advise the sender by return e-mail, and 3) delete all
>>> copies (including all
>>> attachments) from your computer. Your cooperation is greatly
>>> appreciated.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: James Jackson, CID [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2020 9:35 AM
>>> To: TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Decker, Scott Collins
>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Subject: Re: [TN] [External] [TN] BGA Pin Numbering
>>>
>>> Scott,
>>>
>>> That is _EXACTLY_ what I was looking for! You get a gold star!
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, I do not think that it will help. I am already
>>> getting a 'we don't skip letters' response from the engineer.
>>>
>>> Sadly - the company fabricates their own parts, so it may be a case
>>> of
>>> - just do it like we say - regardless of the industry and standards.
>>>
>>> Now I have to look forward to renumbering a ton of balls to match
>>> their screwy non-skip requirement.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> James Jackson, CID
>>> Oztronics
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2020-11-05 09:59, Decker, Scott Collins wrote:
>>>> James,
>>>> I think I found your silver bullet... :-) I just looked up the
>>>> Contact defining section in IPC-7351 and found this: (Since I can't
>>>> attach in plane text, I'll copy the text)
>>>>
>>>> Section: 14.2.5 Defining Contact Assignment Array contact
>>>> identification is assigned by the column and Row location. For
>>>> Example, A1 contact position is always at an outside corner
>>>> position with alpha characters arranged in a vertical (row) pattern
>>>> from top to bottom. Numeric characters are assigned in a horizontal
>>>> (column) axis (I, O, Q, S, X and Z are omitted) (see Figure 14-10).
>>>>
>>>> So there you go, you got a standard that gives you a reason... :-)
>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>> Later...
>>>>
>>>> PS. Sorry for the history thing, I didn't know... :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Scott Decker | Senior Engineer, PCB Design Services CID+ |
>>>> Electronic Systems Center COLLINS AEROSPACE
>>>> 3445 S. 5th Street, Suite 170, Phoenix, AZ 85040 U.S.A.
>>>> Tel: 602 308 5957 FAX: 602 243 2347 [log in to unmask]
>>>> www.collinsaerospace.com [collinsaerospace.com] KE7MWT
>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY WARNING: This message may contain proprietary
>>>> and/or privileged information of Collins Aerospace Systems and its
>>>> affiliated companies. If you are not the intended recipient please
>>>> 1) do not disclose, copy, distribute or use this message or its
>>>> contents, 2) advise the sender by return e-mail, and 3) delete all
>>>> copies (including all
>>>> attachments) from your computer. Your cooperation is greatly
>>>> appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: James Jackson, CID [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 3:56 PM
>>>> To: Decker, Scott Collins <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Cc: TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Subject: RE: [External] [TN] BGA Pin Numbering
>>>>
>>>> Scott,
>>>>
>>>> I understand the history, and fully agree. That's not my issue - at
>>>> the moment.
>>>>
>>>> My issue is that I am tasked with creating a BGA footprint that has
>>>> a
>>>> 17x17 grid.
>>>> The drawing I was handed to use as a datasheet has a BGA on it -
>>>> and it is 'lettered' A - Q - with no 'skips'.
>>>>
>>>> Now, I can look at this two ways. I can shrug and ignore it, and
>>>> create my BGA footprint using the Footprint generator - which skips
>>>> the letters 'I', 'O' and 'Q' - which means that I will have to
>>>> manually renumber those rows to comply with the companies'
>>>> mis-numbered BGA. (Lots of
>>>> work.)
>>>>
>>>> My other option is to raise my hand and ask why we are not
>>>> following XYZ spec which states to skip these letters. I just need
>>>> to know what that XYZ spec is, cause I may be in for a discussion
>>>> which will most likely begin with 'we've always done it that way'.
>>>>
>>>> The ANSI spec (as previously mentioned) may be the way to go.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the feedback.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> James Jackson, CID
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2020-11-04 16:34, Decker, Scott Collins wrote:
>>>>> Hi James,
>>>>> I don't know of, (OK, I don't remember which) the IPC spec,
>>>>> although I'll bet there is several documents that cover this, but
>>>>> long story short. The use of I, O, Q, S, V, and Z, (I may have
>>>>> missed one or
>>>>> two)
>>>>> or rather the lack of their use is to prevent misinterpretation of
>>>>> the letters to numbers, etc. An "I" could be seen as "1", "O" the
>>>>> letter as "0" zero the number, S for 5, V for U, Q for O, S for 5,
>>>>> and Z for 2. I think you can get the jest of that. I'm not a
>>>>> historian on this, but back in the day, both copy/blueprint
>>>>> machines and silkscreen on PCB assemblies didn't create such
>>>>> perfect text as they are today, (OK they are MUCH better for sure)
>>>>> and thus, skipping letters listed, was a safe way to ensure the
>>>>> correct character(s) was/were read and understood. I believe there
>>>>> are ANSI drawing documents that also call out this list and
>>>>> perhaps other things, but I'm hoping this answers your question or
>>>>> at least helps. If your tools are helping you out by not allowing
>>>>> the use of these letters and such, let them help you, it's better
>>>>> than making an error and having to fix it later... :-) Stay safe
>>>>> and healthy!
>>>>> Later...
>>>>>
>>>>> Scott Decker | Senior Engineer, PCB Design Services CID+ |
>>>>> Electronic Systems Center COLLINS AEROSPACE
>>>>> 3445 S. 5th Street, Suite 170, Phoenix, AZ 85040 U.S.A.
>>>>> Tel: 602 308 5957 FAX: 602 243 2347 [log in to unmask]
>>>>> www.collinsaerospace.com [collinsaerospace.com] KE7MWT
>>>>> CONFIDENTIALITY WARNING: This message may contain proprietary
>>>>> and/or privileged information of Collins Aerospace Systems and its
>>>>> affiliated companies. If you are not the intended recipient please
>>>>> 1) do not disclose, copy, distribute or use this message or its
>>>>> contents, 2) advise the sender by return e-mail, and 3) delete all
>>>>> copies (including all
>>>>> attachments) from your computer. Your cooperation is greatly
>>>>> appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of James Jackson,
>>>>> CID
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 3:02 PM
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: [External] [TN] BGA Pin Numbering
>>>>>
>>>>> I am in the process of creating a BGA footprint.
>>>>>
>>>>> This BGA is a 17x17 ball package - for this discussion, the
>>>>> particular dimensions are irrelevant.
>>>>>
>>>>> My question... the IPC footprint generator (Altium) starts the
>>>>> alpha section of numbering with the letter 'A' and then goes
>>>>> sequentially to B, C, D, E, F, G, H - and skips I. The next one is
>>>>> J, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this by some 'standard' or arbitrary. I have seen this done
>>>>> through the years with the skipping of the letters 'I', 'O',
>>>>> and...
>>>>> I
>>>>> don't remember the others, but think that there are a few others.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm looking for some sort of 'reference' or published IPC
>>>>> statement (JEDEC perhaps?) that says, 'skip the following letters
>>>>> when creating BGA footprints'.
>>>>>
>>>>> (I hope my ramblings make sense...)
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> James Jackson, CID
>>>>> Oztronics
>>
>
>
> --
> Steve Gregory
> Kimco Design and Manufacturing
> Process Engineer
> (208) 322-0500 Ext. -3133
>
> --
>
>
>
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