My apologies to Chris. I did not intend for my comments to make you to feel
at fault. Thanks Doug for pointing that out!
Best Regards,
Joe Russeau
Process Analyst
Precision Analytical Laboratory, Inc.
4106 Cartwright Dr. Ste. A
Kokomo, IN 46902
P: 765-455-1993
F: 765-455-1996
E: [log in to unmask]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas O. Pauls" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [TN] PCB Storage
> A little harsh Joe. Keep in mind that the process people who pose these
> questions often have no control over who they get their supplies from.
The
> lowly process engineer often does not have the authority to make changes
to
> the decisions made by the powers that be. We have all had to develop
> assembly floor workarounds for such issue and that is what I perceive the
> requester to be asking here. They are being asked to take a sows ear and
> make a silk purse.
>
> The definition of a Process Engineer - one who spins gold from crap.
>
> Doug Pauls
>
>
>
>
> Joe Russeau
> <jrusseau@PRECISI
> ONANALYSTS.COM> To
> Sent by: TechNet [log in to unmask]
> <[log in to unmask]> cc
>
> Subject
> 08/10/2005 10:53 Re: [TN] PCB Storage
> AM
>
>
> Please respond to
> TechNet E-Mail
> Forum
> <[log in to unmask]>
> ; Please respond
> to
> Joe Russeau
> <jrusseau@PRECISI
> ONANALYSTS.COM>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> You have a number of issues that need to be addressed. I'm not sure,
> especially if your company is unwilling to do anything about them, that
any
> resolution will come from this group, but I will kick in my few cents.
Take
> it for what it is worth.
>
> The issues that you are having with your board vendor are not uncommon. I
> have worked with numerous companies that have had issues with board
> suppliers. They like to cut corners to save money. If your board supplier
> is not willing to meet the standards set forth by your company, then maybe
> it is time to find a new supplier. This is of course assuming that you
> have
> made an effort to enforce your standards. Using desperation as a
> justification for continuing to accept inferior quality ( as defined by
> your
> standards) is a poor excuse, especially from a Class III manufacturer.
> What
> do you folks manufacture again? I would suggest (if you have not already
> done so) entering into some discussion with your board supplier. If you
> have done that and nothing has changed, then find someone who is willing
to
> make, test and package the boards as you require. As a manufacturer, I
> would not take the chance of producing poor quality Class III product. As
> a
> consumer, well... that is a different soap box.
>
> As far as storage is concerned, their have been many good comments since
> yesterday about storing PCB's. However, the impression you leave is that
> your company doesn't regard this as an important issue. Mind sets will
> need
> to change if you expect to address the issues you are having. Baking the
> boards is band-aid over a gapping wound. With the type of humidity you
> have
> in your area (50-85%) and an uncontrolled environment, then you are going
> to
> oxidize metal, period. Baking the boards may drive off moisture, but will
> not change oxidation. Baking can make oxidation worse.
>
> Removing oxidation form the boards can be done with saponifier depending
on
> the thickness of the oxidation layer. It may be that a more concentrated
> solution of saponifier is needed. Since you are using Kyzen material, I
> would recommend talking with them before making such a change. You may
> have
> oxidized to the point that no saponifier is not going to be effective.
>
> Best of luck!
>
> Joe Russeau
>
> Precision Analytical Laboratory, Inc.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Schaefer, Chris" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 8:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [TN] PCB Storage
>
>
> > Hello All,
>
> > Hope you are all having just a wonderful day in the land of Milk and
> Honey!
> >
> > HELP PLEASE...
>
> > We are currently in a situation in which we have little to no control of
> the humidity or temperature within our facility, and probably never will.
> We
> also do not have complete compliance to our procedures from the board
> vendors - so we do not receive the boards as we would like them (MBBag,
> appropriate desiccant and volume of desiccant, HICard, solderability test
> results, and ionic or other cleanliness test results from each lot/ date
> code set). This will not change in the near future either due to the fact
> that we need the boards so desperately we accept almost anything.
> Internally
> we have little if any discipline when storing/ handling the boards so we
> are
> constantly baking boards and performing solderability tests (especially
> during the summer months). We try to keep all board packaged in an MBB
with
> HICard with a maximum of 20 boards per bag (zip-lock), but still have
> humidity failures (We are in Kansas - currently 50-85%RH depending on the
> day). How should this be done properly? Most of the boards are Class 3
> products and we are required to use 2% no-clean flux with most product, so
> it is difficult to solder anyways.
> >
> > My first question is: Can you clean the tin/ lead HASL plating with a
> type
> of chemical to remove oxides so that we do not have to send the boards
back
> to the vendor for cleaning or re-plating? If so what is the chemical? We
> have tried using A4512P (Kyzen product), but this does not work well. I
> have
> been told to get something with MEK in the mixture, but I don't know for
> sure.
> >
> > My second question is: When I have Gold Immersion plated boards and they
> are found in the packaging to have a failed HICard, how do you remove the
> moisture in the board? I have read that baking this type of plating
> actually
> reduces the solderability of the board. Is this true?
> >
> > Please HELP...
> >
> > I appreciate any support I can get. Thank You.
> >
> > Chris Schaefer
> > Suntron Corporation
> > Process Engineer
> > 540 N. Rogers Road
> > Olathe, Kansas 66062
> > 913.393.5878
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> > NOTICE:
> >
> > This message is intended for the use of the individual entity to which
it
> is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential
> and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this
> message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent
responsible
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> or returning the original message to us.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Joe Russeau
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 3:14 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [TN] PCB Storage
> >
> >
> > Hi Paul,
> >
> > This is one of those "It Depends" questions.
> >
> > Most of the studies I have read with respect to storage of tin-lead HASL
> > boards suggests a shelf life of up to twelve months. I have not seen
any
> > studies for boards with that surface finish being stored for that
> extended
> > period of time (2 years). In my opinion, the ideal situation would be
to
> > purchase the boards as you need them and eliminate the issues
surrounding
> > extended storage. But since you already have the boards that is not an
> > option.
> >
> > My 2 cents are to make sure that if you plan on storing them, that you
> > package for the long term (2 years) and not for the short term (6mos).
I
> > would suggest vacuum packaging them in a clean, moisture and debris
> > resistant container (e.g. Kapak heat-sealable bag). Depending on how
many
> > boards you have to store and their dimensions, it may be advisable to
> store
> > them in a dessicated environment after vacuum sealing them. Controlling
> the
> > humidity is going to be key to reducing the oxidation rate. Unless you
> use
> a
> > nitrogen blanket to store the boards, you will not eliminate oxidation,
> but
> > by controlling the humidity, you should be able to slow the process a
> bit.
> >
> > It is hard to say what will happen after long term storage, but I would
> > suggest checking a few boards (provided you have extra) for
> solderability.
> > If the boards solder as you expect, then you may be safe to continue to
> > assembly. If you have problems, you may want to consider a mild
> saponified
> > wash to remove any oxidation or debris that has accumulated from storage
> and
> > repeat the solderability. Best of luck!
> >
> > Joe Russeau
> > Process Analyst
> >
> > Precision Analytical Laboratory, Inc.
> > 4106 Cartwright Dr. Ste. A
> > Kokomo, IN 46902
> >
> > P: 765-455-1993
> > F: 765-455-1996
> > E: [log in to unmask]
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Black, Paul" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:31 PM
> > Subject: [TN] PCB Storage
> >
> >
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > I have some bare PC boards that may be built up in the future, but not
> in
> > the near future. I would like to put them into storage until needed
> > (anywhere from 6 months to 2 years). The boards are .062" FR-4 HASL
> boards.
> > What would you recommend for protection, assuming that the storage
> > conditions are typical of an office environment? Would I have to do
> anything
> > special to them when they are removed from storage? Any suggestions
would
> be
> > greatly appreciated.
> > >
> > > Thank you,
> > > Paul Black
> > > Manufacturing Engineer
> > > Kronos
> > > E-mail: [log in to unmask]
> > >
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