And here's more on the Prius brake problems...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/04/business/global/04prius.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
The difficulties with brakes on the hybrid Prius could deal a second blow to the automaker’s reputation for quality. Toyota executives must now confront complaints that seem tailor-made for late-night comedians — some cars that keep accelerating against the driver’s will and others that fail to stop promptly when the driver hits the brakes.
Bob Landman
H&L Instruments, LLC
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Landman [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 6:00 PM
To: '(Leadfree Electronics Assembly Forum)'; 'Steve Gregory'
Subject: RE: [LF] Perfect opportunity for tin whiskers induced failures - Toyota did not install brake override systems despite complaints
Here’s the story re Transportation Secty LaHood calling for owners to quit driving their cars
http://www.manufacturing.net/article.aspx?id=239504
Note there are still more car types involved now including the fabled Prius.
Bob Landman
H&L Instruments, LLC
-----Original Message-----
From: Leadfree [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Gregory
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 2:09 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [LF] Perfect opportunity for tin whiskers induced failures - Toyota did not install brake override systems despite complaints
Just before I came into work this afternoon I was watching the news and the head of the Department of Transportation Ray LaHood had told a House committee that Toyota owners should "stop driving" and bring affected cars back to the company.
LaHood also acknowledged that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is investigating Toyotas not just for problems with gas pedals, but for problems with the electrical systems, as well. "We will also be investigating the electronic components that are in these cars and if they're not safe, we'll have Toyota take a look at that," LaHood said.
This kind of stuff makes you wonder if we'll ever find out the truth...
-----Original Message-----
From: Leadfree [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Patten, Chuck
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 3:44 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [LF] Perfect opportunity for tin whiskers induced failures - Toyota did not install brake override systems despite complaints
I think that "the Woz's" comment about his car accelerating without being commanded to has more potential for a Tin Whisker problem that the sticking pedals. He thinks that it is software but due to its intermittent nature it could easily be a whisker that has grown long enough to be waving about and making contact where it shouldn't. I once saw a circuit assembly that when we opened it in the shop and looked at it under bright lights, looked like a field of grain waving in the air currents. Anyone know how to get in touch with Mr. Wozniak?
Chuck Patten, PMP
Engineer Lead Project
-----Original Message-----
From: Leadfree [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Werner Engelmaier
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 10:41 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [LF] Perfect opportunity for tin whiskers induced failures
- Toyota did not install brake override systems despite complaints
Hi Marcus,
You should see two of my granddaughters, one was on the NC traveling baseball (yes, not softball) team and the other is a goalie/forward.
Girls play rough too, and thank God for that.
Werner
-----Original Message-----
From: Marcus L. Thompson <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, Feb 3, 2010 12:22 am
Subject: Re: [LF] Perfect opportunity for tin whiskers induced failures
- Toyota did not install brake override systems despite complaints
Thanks again for your valuable input, Dean.
Yep, it's easy to get wrapped up tight in matters such as this: Just ask folks around me at this end. In any event, life isn't safe; and boys play rough sometimes.
And I truly thank God for that ;o)
Prosit!
--- Previous Message in This Thread ---
Subject: Re:[LF] Perfect opportunity for tin whiskers induced failures - Toyota did not install brake override systems despite complaints
From: Dean Stadem <[log in to unmask]>
To: '(Leadfree Electronics Assembly Forum)' <[log in to unmask]>, 'Marcus L. Thompson' <[log in to unmask]>, 'James, Chris' <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 7:39:37 PM
> It is a great community. The Technet and Leadfree forums are some of
the
> most amazing collections of minds that we will ever see, much more so
> than any of us fully appreciates sometimes. The ability to throw stuff
> out there with little inhibition is what makes the ideas, thoughts,
and
> opinions flow.
> > I realized last week that sometimes I get a little opinionated (OK,
a
> lot) on the RoHS and lead-in-solder subjects, and without realizing it
I
> was overly critical. I certainly do not want that to happen; I value
the
> differing opinions, especially those of people like Chris James.
Chris,
> I owe you an apology. You had some really good points. I just don't
> agree with how these things came about, and I cannot accept that they
> are here to stay. But your thoughts and opinions certainly did make me
> re-evaluate and re-focus on the subject, and I wanted you to know
that.
> > R. Dean Stadem
> Consulting Engineer
> Analog Technologies Corp./Lumagine, Inc.
> 11441 Rupp Drive
> Burnsville, MN 55431
> (952)894-9228
> [log in to unmask]
> > > -----Original Message-----
> From: Leadfree [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Marcus L.
Thompson
> Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 8:04 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [LF] Perfect opportunity for tin whiskers induced
failures
> - Toyota did not install brake override systems despite complaints
> > "With tin whiskers, absence of evidence is seldom evidence of
absence, > the remaining whiskers are usually evident."
> > Fair enough. And, indeed, there is potentially more evidence of
this > type of failure in spaceborne equipment where substantial arcing can
> occur.
> > (I think Bob did a good job of encapsulating the rest in his latest
> post.)
> > What a great community --
> > > > --- Previous Message in This Thread ---
> Subject: Re:[LF] Perfect opportunity for tin whiskers induced failures
-
> > Toyota did not install brake override systems despite complaints
> From: Stadem, Richard D. <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 12:18:05 PM
> >> That is not completely true. >> While the solitary whisker or
whiskers on an electronic device that
>> caused the short leading to overvoltage or non-conforming signal
>> conditions may burn itself away in our atmosphere, several more
> shorter
>> non-conducting whiskers are usually left behind. With tin whiskers,
>> absence of evidence is seldom evidence of absence, the remaining
>> whiskers are usually evident.
>> In space, a tin whisker acts the same as a filament in a light bulb,
> due
>> to the vacuum (lack of oxygen). In that situation a short is usually
>> permanently fused between the adjacent non-common conductors, and
> while
>> it may break off during re-entry, enough evidence usually, but not
>> always, is left behind to make a determination as to what happened.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Leadfree [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Marcus L.
> Thompson
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 2:07 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [LF] Perfect opportunity for tin whiskers induced
> failures
>> - Toyota did not install brake override systems despite complaints
>>
>> "...tin whiskers are a convenient thing liabilitywise for
> manufacturers >> in any violent catastrophe involving same: They can
simply break off
> and
>> fall away from the scene of the crime, all without a trace."
>>
>> Is this at all true?
>>
>> If so, who's to say what actually happened? Could human nature
> possibly
>> factor in to the statements and proclamations of a large industrial
>> organization when confronted with an accusatory public eye?
>>
>> Tin whiskers are yet another failure vector for these systems; one
> which
>> is increasingly likely to meaningfully assert itself in devices >>
manufactured using lead-free technologies with the passage of time.
>>
>> So, perhaps one could say it's all a matter of time...
>>
>>
>>
>> --- Previous Message in This Thread ---
>> Subject: Re:[LF] Perfect opportunity for tin whiskers induced
failures
> -
>> Toyota did not install brake override systems despite complaints
>> From: John Burke <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 8:57:21 AM
>>
>>> They also stated publicly a few months ago that the problem was
floor
>>> mats......8-) >>>
>>>
>>> John Burke
>>> (408) 515 4992
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Leadfree [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of TIMOTHY
MCGRADY
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 7:42 AM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: [LF] Perfect opportunity for tin whiskers induced
>> failures -
>>> Toyota did not install brake override systems despite complaints
>>>
>>> Toyota stated publicly today that the cause was not electronic in
>> nature.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Leadfree [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Pete Houwen
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 9:24 AM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: [LF] Perfect opportunity for tin whiskers induced
>> failures -
>>> Toyota did not install brake override systems despite complaints
>>>
>>> the electronic controlled throttle also makes traction control far
>> easier to
>>> implement. Since loss of traction is far more common than stuck
>> throttles,
>>> they saved money and increased safety.
>>>
>>> Of course, including a "brake wins" algorithm would have saved
lives.
>> And
>>> amortized over millions of cars, software is almost free.
>>>
>>> I don't know if Toyota has nailed the problem with the friction
>> solution.
>>> But it
>>> has been vetted by the NHTSA, and they seem to agree. I don't doubt
>> there
>>> is also an electronic failure problem - electronics fail. But what
I
>> do
>>> know is there is no indication so far of a tin whisker problem. It
>> concerns
>>> me that
>>>
>>> blaming any electronic failure on tin whiskers without any
scientific
>>> evidence is really no more valid than banning lead in solder with no
>>> scientific evidence. >>> There's enough data, crying wolf won't get
RoHS repealed. That's
> more
>>> likely to just make it harder to stop the next legislative mistake.
>>>
>>>
>
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