Chuck,
See below.  My answers are in CAPS to avoid confusion. I am not yelling
at you.  :)
Bev
RIM

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Dolci [mailto:[log in to unmask]] 
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 11:49 AM
To: (Leadfree Electronics Assembly Forum); Bev Christian
Subject: Re: [LF] Disposal of electronic waste

Bev:

>(In effect, rich countries also pollute third-world countries by buying
>metals mined there, but he hasn't called for a ban on importing such
>metals - so far.) 
>- Good point!
>  
>
Have we considered the human misery and premature deaths plus 
environmental damage resulting from poverty?
- GOOD POINT.  THIS IS PART OF WHAT GORDON WAS SAYING.

Let's take inventory here - we don't want third-world people to mine 
their lands for metal, don't want them to cut their  trees for wood 
products or to clear land for agriculture, we don't want to put western 
factories their because it exploits labor, we don't want them to build 
dams for flood control and power generation. So, let us just keep buying

their charming hand-woven baskets, crudely carved wooden statuettes, and

cheap metal trinkets at our local Pier One Imports store so we can all 
feel good about how wonderful we are.
I, MOI, ME never SAID THAT. I WANT THEM TO MINE RESPONSIBLY AS ONE CAN
AND STILL HELP THEMSELVES OUT OF POVERTY. THE SCANDANAVIANS HAVE BEEN
RESPONSIBLY CUTTING AND NUTURING FORESTS FOR ALMOST A HUNDRED YEARS. TOO
BAD THE ASIANS AND US NORTH AMERICANS COULDN'T DO THE SAME.  I NEVER
SAID ANYTHING ABOUT FARMING.  FACTORIES ARE GOOD - IF THEY DON'T PRODUCE
CITIES OF FINGERLESS PEOPLE, POLLUTE THE LAND, STEAL INTELLECTUAL
PROPERTY AND HIDE BEHIND ARTIFICIAL BARRIERS. IF THEY DO BETTER THAN US
ON AN EVEN FIELD, THEN SHAME ON US AND WE DESERVE WHAT WE GET. I HAVE
MIXED FEELINGS ABOUT THE THREE GORGES DAM. IT IS NOT A BLACK AND WHITE
ISSUE.

>Mr. Smith's solution is to prohibit the export of e-waste from the US.
>He likes to say that the people engaged in this recycling should not
>have to choose between poverty and poison. What he does not say is that
>since he can't get them to recycle responsibly he wants to choose for
>them - poverty.
>- I think this is too simplistic, on both sides of the argument.  I'm
>not very good at debating, Gordon, and you stopped me dead with this
one
>when we met last time.  I expect no one has even tried to educate the
>people to do it even a marginally better way.  If we are going to ship
>stuff, someone should be providing some how-to's (not just out of
sight,
>out of mind).  And when were we responsible for their poverty?  And I
>still think we should be responsible for our own mess.  If we like
>pretty shiny things like crows, then we should put it in our own nest,
>or at least under our own tree.  Why should we ship things that help
>make it worse, even if we are not the ones wacking the ends off CRTs by
>hand?
>

Saying that people shouldn't have to choose between poverty and poison 
may make certain people feel good, but it is merely the observation of a

naturally occuring fact.  There are lots of things that "should not" be,

but they are and they need to be dealt with with real solutions and not 
nonsensical platitudes such as those employed by Ted Smith and his ilk.
WELL I CERTAINLY HOPE YOU DO NOT PUT ME IN that CATEGORY.  YOU SHOULD
KNOW ME BETTER THAN THAT, AFTER ALL THESE YEARS, CHUCK.

In the real world things are done either by labor or by capital.  If you

are going to engage in recycling then it either has to be done by people

who will then be exposed to the chemicals in the materials being 
recycled or it is done by machines that  will suffer the exposure and 
deal with it.  Machinery is capital, and that means diverting resources 
from some other uses.
YES, BUT EVEN IF THINGS ARE DONE WITH LABOR, THEY CAN BE DONE smart.

Consider this, what if all the time, labor and physical resources spent 
on lead-free had instead been spent on creating the capital that could 
be used in recycling electronics in the third world?
YOU HAVE NO ARGUMENT FROM ME THERE!!!!  SOMEONE ON THIS OR THE TECHNET
FORUM SAID (MORE OR LESS) "THE SMARTEST THING WE HAVE DONE ECOLOGICALLY
SPEAKING IS BAN TETRAETHYL LEAD AND BANNING LEADED SOLDER WAS ONE OF THE
DUUMBEST".  I AGREE.

And, by the way, many times (not always) identifying a problem, and it's

causes is simple - and there are times when the solution is simple as
well.
AGREED
Chuck





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