Dave,
<IF YOU have another listserve anywhere in the WORLD that is as good as
this IPC LF Listserve, PLEASE let us know. I know of NONE.>
There is one - the EMC-PSTC list server for EMC and Product Safety
regulatory compliance types. Nearly 900 members throughout the world.
Prime focus is safety and EMC of products we make that use electricity.
From time to time there have been questions about WEEE/RoHS and these
are usually referred to the IPC LF listserve. We have similar exchanges
about compliance topics. But we do not usually stray into the
socio-economic discussions as this list has from time to time. We are a
bit more strict so as to maintain the list for just asking and answering
compliance questions. We leave the politics to other venues. We do have
representation on the list from standards makers and we do often ask
questions and provide feedback on standards that then gets passed on to
rule making committees. Often these are explored and incorporated in
standards. That can take years, but it is our best avenue for change.
Would that there was similar representation on this list so we could get
the WEEE/RoHS rule makers to consider the errors of their ways and make
changes that would be useful and beneficial to all.
I enjoy reading the list and following the exchanges, although I must
admit it is a sideline for me.
Regards,
Scott Douglas
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Leadfree [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of MA/NY DDave
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 12:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [LF] tin price - the facts
Hi Keith, Kay, Joe, Brian, Chuck, IPC LF Listservers,
One last note on this topic Keith, since I do value your past and
hopefully future LF contributions, and then I am back to technical
topics.
<As I have found debate with some of the regular contributors to the IPC
Lead-free Forum is a lost cause and your contributions are discounted
because of the perception that Tin Technology is an arm of the tin
cartel.>
Two comments: I never remember you debating anything on list.
Usually you give your information, correct or add appropriatly.
Most of us on LF value KayN or Tin's Kay, greatly, yet a few get a bit
HOT sometimes due to what's happening globally. Hey kind of like Keith
at us..
In one of the definitions of the word cartel, Soldertec or the Tin
Institute is a cartel. The IPC, JEDEC, could also be called cartels.
Look up the word and you will find it has a wide range of meanings
including an organization of groups for a common cause. Also something
to do with dueling, which I found odd. I agree that usually we use the
word cartel for an organization including governments that can
manipulate, or control prices, terms etc. As an aside a guy I worked
with in Printed Circuits at IBM was a leader in ITIRC.
<All you can do is present what facts there are and get on with
something else in the knowledge that those who are participating in the
IPC Lead-free Forum are not people who have a significant influence on
what happens in the global electronics industry.>
I guess that is an opinion, searching for substantiation.
We have helped a lot of companies, people at organizations, and other
researchers so I think this is a flawed opinion. Some of us are in IEEE,
SMTA, JEDEC, IPC, SMART etc so I guess we are not insignificant. Sorry
Keith, just making a point that just maybe your opinion is flawed and
should be re-evaluated.
IF YOU have another listserve anywhere in the WORLD that is as good as
this IPC LF Listserve, PLEASE let us know. I know of NONE.
<My observation is that most people in the industry are just getting on
with lead-free implementation and finding it is not as bad as it was
made out to be.>
No comment, since it would be too long.
You have read all the reliabity notes, the environmental Ag notes, etc
so you know the length.
<It would be too difficult to explain that the various attempts at
cartel action by the tin industry have failed and that it is now as much
a victim of the low price/under supply/high price/oversupply cycle as
any other commodity.>
Keith, Read Kay's note again about how the Supply Demand Curves (set
point, or region of settling) is off high on Price for some
unexplainable reason.
How I interpreted Kay's note is that on the Supply Curve we have a high
Quantity at a high Price (A curve like a parabola going up to the
right).
The Demand Curve goes from the upper left to the lower right and tells
us that pressure should exist due to the high price to reduce the
Quantity since fewer people wish to buy the product. Thus price will be
reduced to sell off excess inventory rather than carrying it through
Year End or Quarter End Financial Statements at Overstated prices. By
The Way I think this is your point that the Supply Demand curves should
be working.
<You did try to explain that point but it seems to have been lost on the
forum participants that in current circumstances the tin industry is
little more than a bystander in a market driven by speculating traders.>
NOW, although we don't normally use the term cartel for this situation,
or governments, speculating traders that are not related to the tin
companies that would use future contracts to protect their investments,
might be cartels if they significantly disrupt the supply demand
settling point.
Back 10 years or longer we had a family (brothers) in the USA who did
this with shorting GOLD, it was quite the business news at the time.
ANYWAY, Hope this made some peace and Keith Keep Adding value to IPC-LF.
Yours in Engineering, Dave
YiEngr, MA/NY DDave
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