In feudal Europe, the kings, nobles, and Church owned all the land. The ordinary folks were forced into crowded, disease-ridden villages and towns. In the centuries after 1492, Europe's excess population moved to North America, many of them displaced by the Enclosure Movement in England and the analogous rationalization of agriculture everywhere else. That is a process that everywhere accompanies industrialization's need for cheap labor. So the displaced peasants swelled the populations of London and Paris, etc. Read Dickens. These cities became cesspools, like the favelas of Rio today.
But Europe was lucky. A vast virgin safety valve was waiting to absorb the excess population-- America. When those former Europeans came to the New World, they had no intention of cooping themselves up in the crowded fashion of their forebears. No, they were all going to live like Lords. So they spread themselves
all over the countryside.
The result today is that due to accidents of history, Europe has green countrysides and the U.S. has sprawl.
But guess what, we are going to rebuild America. Land values, rapid transit, real estate bubbles, in short, economics, make that inevitable. Maybe we'll start by bulldozing Detroit.
________________________________
From: "Patten, Chuck" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, February 12, 2010 9:22:34 AM
Subject: Re: [LF] NTC: Toxic computers (cont)
More, and please don't take this personally, "Half-Information" based
upon distorted data. Having walked and taken public transportation in
Europe, Asia and other parts of the world as well as the USA, they
simply don't compare to the USA. For the most part, the USA towns are
dispersed where other parts of the world are built on top of themselves
making walking more practical. We have seen decades of trying to
pretend that the USA would be so much better off if we only built
infrastructure lust like the rest of the world with foreseeable poor
outcomes. It is a vast waste of time and resources that would be better
focused on the USA's infrastructure maintenance and improvement.
If you really want to start a "flame war" we could discuss the
socio-economic reasons that the infrastructure developed the way that it
has around the world...
cheers,
Chuck Patten, PMP
-----Original Message-----
From: Leadfree [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Joe Fjelstad
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 9:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [LF] NTC: Toxic computers (cont)
Hi Brian.
In addition to better hybrids, I would also submit that folks might use
public transportation and re-learn how to walk and ride bikes again. (or
do it more) According to a recent study Europeans on average walk 237
miles (~ 400KM) and cycle 116 miles per year; U.S. residents walk 87
miles (~145KM) and bike 24 miles. Many car trips are easily walked and
most are driven alone.
http://thedailynewsonline.com/articles/2010/02/09/lifestyles/4966876.txt
Best,
Joe
However, there is one thing I shall categorically state: the future of
mankind, in the long term, must rest on recycling as many molecules and
atoms as we can. All our physical resources are limited in quantity and
everything that is thrown away and becomes irrecoverable is a resource
lost to our children and grandchildren. I say this irrespective of cost:
today's valueless PE or PP insulation may be tomorrow's fuel that drives
us to work in our 8th generation hybrid car!
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, Feb 12, 2010 7:46 am
Subject: [LF] NTC: Toxic computers (cont)
[rant]
I've been following the debate here and have deliberately not joined in,
up to now, because it is not a single subject, but half-a-dozen
completely independent ones, all mixed up, higgledy-piggledy. It is
therefore impossible to follow a logical sequence of arguments. (In any
case, although the LF forum may have been the correct place to start,
this should really have gone to the EnviroNet board!)
Some of the newer members may not know me so please forgive me if I
briefly state that I have been working with various high-level
government agencies and the United Nations Environment Programme for
nigh on 3 decades, initially on ozone depletion and later climate
change, both atmospheric science-based. Notwithstanding, my academic
background started 60-odd years ago in electronics.
In my environmental specialities, I doubt whether there are any serious
atmospheric scientists who would deny today that ozone depletion, due
mainly to man-made organic halogenated compounds, is fact, pure and
simple. This was not always the case; when the Montreal Protocol was
signed in September 1987, the science was certainly shaky, although
there was considerable circumstantial evidence in its favour. Just one
year later, the scientific proof was empirically demonstrated, combined
with sound explanations why the so-called "ozone-hole" was found where
CFCs etc. were not emitted. Scepticism is a healthy reaction to such
explanations and even proof, and it took the best part of 10 years
before 99% of the scientific community realised that anthropogenic
ozone-depletion was for real.
Moving to climate change, the science is already advanced and is
improving daily. We are now at the stage where few atmospheric
scientists deny the reality that humans are changing the atmosphere
(there is plenty of solid proof, even confirming Arrhenius' hypothesis
and calculations that CO2 emissions would cause climate change, well
over 100 years ago). There may still be some doubt in the minds of the
few more recalcitrant persons as to the respective proportions due to
man-made and natural phenomena, but that is not the crux of the matter.
The science is now robust, even with the uncertainties of some of the
details.
Coming back to the thread, I'm still amazed at the difference in
attitude on the two sides of the Atlantic, not at the facts of life, but
at the cynicism -- which is NOT the same as scepticism -- expressed on
environmental matters on the west side. Even from the relative
intelligentsia of some of the members of this forum, I shudder at some
of the statements. I'm not sure whether this is due to ignorance or
deliberate denial, in some cases. Don't get me wrong, some from the east
side of that sea are also manifestly mistaken, as well.
I think that some of this may be due to envirofatigue: nagging the same
thing over and over again is a terrible waste of time and energy and the
popular media must take a whole lot of blame for this. In particular, I
decry the extreme scenarios (in both senses) that the tabloids so love
to propagate (even those English ones that pretend to be serious, like
the Daily Telegraph and Daily Mail) to try and convince everyone that it
is baloney. These rags will change their tune, like the Sun, if a
Conservative government gets in later this year.
I won't go into details because there have been so many right and so
many wrong things, at least in my opinion, scattered around this
subject. However, there is one thing I shall categorically state: the
future of mankind, in the long term, must rest on recycling as many
molecules and atoms as we can. All our physical resources are limited in
quantity and everything that is thrown away and becomes irrecoverable is
a resource lost to our children and grandchildren. I say this
irrespective of cost: today's valueless PE or PP insulation may be
tomorrow's fuel that drives us to work in our 8th generation hybrid car!
I therefore appeal for more thought and reflection on where we are
really heading, rather than gut-feeling and especially total or partial
denial.
Sorry to take this to a slightly more philosophical level than expressed
in some of the other post. Let battle now be enjoined!
[/rant]
Brian
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