I think it would be very nice to see a 'insiders view' of the IPC and how it
operates and what it's history is and where it is going...
Please Pete, if you guys can get them to be interviewed and make some sort
of 'open house' article it would clear the air and help us to see the
organization in a much clearer light... I think our friends and designers
deserve no less.
Best regards,
Bill Brooks - KG6VVP
PCB Design Engineer, C.I.D.+, C.I.I.
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
_______________________________________
Member of the San Diego Chapter of the IPC Designers Council
Communications Officer, Web Manager
http://dcchapters.ipc.org/SanDiego/
http://pcbwizards.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Waddell [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 12:13 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] Propaganda Rant
I think it is important to go back and look at Mike Buetow's post. The IPC
is not set up to this sort of thing. As far as I know they have an admin
staff who are IPC employees and depend on the volunteers. And I assume that
if someone else wrote a competeing product for PCBL then IPC would give it
like consideration.
Let em ask a question that may be off this subject a little bit, Would an
(of course un-biased) article in PCD&M (or on our webiste) that goes in to
who, when, what where, when and why of the IPC be of interest to the general
audience?
p.
Pete Waddell
President
UP Media Group
678-589-8813
[log in to unmask]
>>> [log in to unmask] 05/11/05 02:55PM >>>
Jim,
You do me and the others a disservice with an offhand, flippant, response
which misquotes me.
You wrote: "what you are saying is that I should expect to get help or
assistance ..."
When in fact I said "if .. the IPC .. agree to link to it" .
In any event that is a side-bar; the crux of the issue is that IPC does
not have the resources to write and distribute sophisticated tools; they
were never set up to do that. As DESIGN gets more and more complex, better
and better tools are needed; and that is not the forte of the IPC. So once
you could get something that worked for you for nothing when life was
simpler; now you either develop it yourself or buy it from someone else.
.... that's all.
There really is nothing sinister going on here.
Valerie
James Jackson <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: DesignerCouncil <[log in to unmask]>
05/11/2005 11:02 AM
Please respond to "(Designers Council Forum)"; Please respond to James
Jackson
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: Re: [DC] Propaganda Rant
So - to expand on this thought...
Changing the direction a tad... let's say that I purchase the IPC-D-356A
(or
B) Spec.
I then study it, and write a program that is used in conjunction with a
CAD
program - and my program generates an IPC-D-356A Electrical Test Netlist
file - from the CAD database.
What you are saying is that I should expect to get 'help' or 'assistance'
from the IPC - in the form of 'advertising' - or 'promotion' of my program
-
because I have taken the time to spend my own personal time and money to
produce it.
Sounds great to me! Where do I sign up for this deal?
Regards,
James Jackson
Oztronics - and author of DBX2IPC - a program for P-CAD 2002, P-CAD 2004 -
that generates IPC-D-356A
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
Valerie St.Cyr
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 9:27 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] Propaganda Rant
OK, I'll bite; for what it's worth, this is what I think:
All standards organizations sell their specifications; IPC at least makes
the test methods manual free for download. You can't even get the
test/sample requirements from UL without paying .. and you need those to
submit for mandatory flame testing.
You can get a lot of free but somewhat lame calculators and tools that
will provide a rough view to whatever it is you are trying to do ... but
if you really want to be accurate enough to design a high speed board,
then you need to *buy* a field solver... Same with other SI tools and
other thermal tools.
There isn't enough money floating around in the "industry" anymore; fewer
memberships; less conferences being attended; fewer books and abstracts
being bought - there isn't enough money to provide for some slush-bucket
of funds to do neat things and provide the membership with the outputs ...
If someone puts time into developing a tool with real useful
functionality, it is because the tool was needed and there weren't enough
people with the right skill sets to do something about it willing to
donate their time to developing it; so an individual picked up the torch
and ran with it; and if the tool falls under the marketing auspices of the
IPC and they agree to link to it, then the tool should (one assumes)
embody the standards and guidelines of the entity setting the
specifications...
I don't know enough about the workings of the IPC to know if they could be
more accommodating; but I suspect that like most organizations they are in
a fight for their existence and they don't have any extra money to design
test vehicles, run test vehicles, get the data and correlate it back to
the development model; hire programmers to write the code etc and so forth
(whatever effort needs to be undertaken to develop the tool and validate
the algorithms). If they were to do that, they would probably have to
charge for the tool too; then the cost is borne by those who use it, not
by the general membership who will not pay more dues to enable something
they don't use. The membership of the IPC is board fabricators;
assemblers; designers; equipment manufacturers; raw material suppliers;
vendors of assorted accessories and consumables ... so it's hard to
develop a particular tool for one segment and have the cost spread amongst
all ...
those are my thoughts; everything today costs something ... back to the
kids with their cell phones: they pay real money to download ring tones
and screen shots with a 90 day or so license then pouf! I choose to pay to
drink good water ... it's just the way it is. You can settle for free and
second best, or pay someone something to acquire advanced intellectual
capital.
Valerie
Chris Ball <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: DesignerCouncil <[log in to unmask]>
05/11/2005 09:43 AM
Please respond to "(Designers Council Forum)"; Please respond to
chris.ball
To: [log in to unmask]
cc:
Subject: Re: [DC] Propaganda Rant
Nick- I've learned whole new ECAD systems quicker than the time it took to
type that original rant. It's been my spare time-filler for a while (and I
still used some bad grammar). My intention was not to imply that PCB
Libraries is selling a poor-quality tool disguised as an IPC standard.
Sorry if that's how you took it.
I've only used the portion of the PCBLibraries tool purchased with
IPC-7351. Regarding the pending IPC-2152 spec. and Thermalman software,
I've got their freeware calculator. But for now, the calculator results
don't match any formally released specification or standard.
So far no one has supplied an example of another standards org. doing what
IPC is doing with these companies. I really don't know one way the other
and would like to hear if it's happening elsewhere. Is this a general
trend
or an IPC thing?
-Chris
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