Mike,
I would have to agree, but they all seem to have a tough enough time just producing bug free software.
It would be a tall order to get them to change their own terminology.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of mike buetow
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 11:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] IPC APEX Designer's Day
Bob,
You are right, of course, but that's the point: The CAD guys join IPC, sign
off on the standard, then ignore it.
It's not the first time that's happened, but it's pretty obnoxious, IMO.
Mike
On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Robert Wolfe <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> Mike,
> Yes from a standards point of view I believe IPC & consensus came up with
> an appropriate terminology for a pattern of copper areas to attach parts
> to.
> To me "Land Pattern" also makes the most sense terminology wise.
>
> Was just pointing out the CAD tool role in this. Most of the designers I've
> interfaced with over the years seem to gravitate towards whatever
> their CAD system calls them when talking about library parts, and NONE
> I've seen
> call it a Land Pattern to date.
>
> Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of mike
> buetow
> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 10:15 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [DC] IPC APEX Designer's Day
>
> IPC long has decided upon "land" as "a portion of a conductive pattern
> usually, but not exclusively, used for the connection and/or attachment of
> components."
>
> Likewise, "land pattern" describes "a combination of lands that is used for
> the mounting, interconnection and testing of a particular component."
>
> (These are per IPC-T-50, the Terms and Definitions standard.)
>
> The way IPC develops a standard is, a group will come together for the
> purposes of writing a standard. IPC coordinates the effort. The task group
> develops a draft, then circulates that draft to anyone in the IPC
> membership who wants to review it. Those originating task group then
> reviews and dispositions the membership's comments, makes any additional
> edits needs, and circulates the final draft (called an Interim Final) for a
> task group vote.
>
> Best,
>
> Mike
>
>
> Mike Buetow
>
> PCD&F/Circuits Assembly
>
> w/m: 617-327-4702
>
> @mikebuetow
>
>
>
> PCB CHAT: A new way to engage the experts:
>
> https://console.mxlogic.com/redir/?hRT76bKfCS4TTS7PhOCr9PCJhbcJm5aD_OEuvkzaTbV7Q9hMAa1s2LJ2xB0dd78l2EqW92wPooaxAm1yoctm0UIXuYwmmvbdxocCmio7y5gNc1wi5mM90o4E0B05S8BPhPdA1pf3pt090gdwgY1TVawgdTo60MdygAdN9Hb28ypmFhJ0d5N8rw0Fcqc84aQd7bwO0U3AkhFlwk9TuhGbnG0V544we84MY3y9dQy0V54o6hiwGO6gC6CgQqs0shyy10uw184xU4wjooj4v0mom63t-hsd7bOabatTztPtj4fyng-AycfzqHsbif1kBHs01dICzAsOqejqbbaqrXUVUQsCSkPobZ8Qg6BIe4ziWq80Qb2hEw40Id0cq80XWi8M-9EDEq80XiNKvxYYmfSk3q9JwSMC--M--CrQu-uqmkp
>
> The 2012 CIRCUITS ASSEMBLY Directory of EMS Companies:
> circuitsassembly.com/dems
>
> *PCB WEST: Sept. 25-27. 2012. Santa Clara (CA) Convention Center
>
> https://console.mxlogic.com/redir/?8WXzz5T7Pr2rXX3VEVjdAVPmEBCmH2Bj_VkffGhBrBYzW4EUiu0k1xgkv18Ubhjy0M3cxAq38ywc-G6Ar6p6i1xZ04xDM90o4xlI2g64w64w54Dzb051U4CzByFBM5Gxdkgrj5O2EjKD5qEy8Rg6wQd5NsaxE5uWUc5gJkw1bM3An1AdZwkA0EIZs1O2pcqccn3kbS5DHwc0IDxIKqehEe6xpWU3i1w56gY3wtlQoaIyOM461wr4yVsrbBNadg76OFK_8K6zBV55BeXNKVKFy7NbEvih67NJlK5F7wGiRK00CSjhOepd79J5BBddZYsYqejrapI5-Aq83iS72hFtd40q5x8Qg20m6w6d40tZ94ov4QjQd40tFoTfM-ub7Xa1JcSMrojvvovvjdRB-M
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]<
> [log in to unmask]>]
> On Behalf Of Robert Wolfe
>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 9:51 AM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: [DC] IPC APEX Designer's Day
>
>
>
> Tom,
>
> Well I wouldn't say we could make such a general statement.
>
>
>
> I think everyone really gets used to calling them what their particular CAD
> System calls them, and they are all different. Problem is when you call up
> for support one generally start to adopt the terminology of the system one
> is using over time.
>
> Hey I'm finally comfortable with the term Decal. (even though I've done my
> share of hand taping back in the day).
>
>
>
> PADS is Decal
>
> Expedition is Cell
>
> Altium is Footprint
>
> Allegro is Symbol
>
> etc
>
> They are all different, so IPC could logically pick any of the above, I
> really don't see each CAD company changing their terms to one standard name
> any time soon.
>
> But stranger things have happened.
>
>
>
> Bob Wolfe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]<
> [log in to unmask]>]
> On Behalf Of Tom Hausherr
>
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 7:49 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: [DC] IPC APEX Designer's Day
>
>
>
> Cherie,
>
>
>
> Now we're exposing terms & definitions issues. I noticed you used the term
> "Footprint" when describing your PCB library parts, but IPC never uses that
> term. The IPC-7351 is the "Land Pattern" standard, not the Footprint
> Standard. However, everywhere I go EE engineers and PCB designers refer to
> there library parts as Footprints.
>
>
>
> Should IPC change the name of the standard to - IPC-7351C Footprint
> Standard?
>
>
>
> Does anyone on this forum refer to their PCB library parts in an everyday
> conversation with co-workers as "Land Patterns"? Or does everyone use the
> term Footprints?
>
>
>
> Example 1: if you created a calculator for library part creation, would you
> call it "The Footprint Calculator"?
>
>
>
> Example 2: do component manufacturer's use "Recommended Footprint"? or Land
> Pattern? or both?
>
>
>
> Example 3: does any CAE/CAD Vendor refer to PCB library parts as Land
> Patterns in their software?
>
>
>
> I've got issues today... Where's Jack Olson on this?
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]<
> [log in to unmask]>]
> On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
>
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 3:43 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: [DC] IPC APEX Designer's Day
>
>
>
> Yes, this part is interesting. I'm a big proponent for working in metric
> for the same reasons that others have expressed here.
>
>
>
> As Andy pointed out, many Americans have difficulty learning a new
> language.
>
> And for us, that's what it is. I've found that being able to think in
> both systems is one of the first steps.
>
>
>
> As I've been creating and maintaining an Altium component database for a
> company, the issue of metric vs inch is discussed from time to time. A
> good compromise has been to keep the footprint names in agreement with the
> IPC Metric base: "RESC2012X40N"; and put the "generic" inch based
> reference at the end of the description line: "Res 1.78K 1/8W 1% 0805".
> It
> makes for easy identification and gets everyone used to both names for the
> part.
>
>
>
> Cherie
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 3/19/2012 3:21:03 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
>
>
> Irina & All,
>
>
>
> What do you call your chip resistors and capacitors?
>
>
>
> EIA Inch Based - 1206, 0805, 0603, 0402 or IPC Metric Based - 3216, 2012,
> 1608, 1005
>
>
>
> This is where it gets interesting....
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: DesignerCouncil
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]>]
> On Behalf Of Irina Leushina
>
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 2:46 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: [DC] IPC APEX Designer's Day
>
>
>
> Yeah, there is sort of busy game out here...
>
> I'm playing mils with fab houses, mm with assembly/pnp vendors, making lib
> patterns depends how the component represents from manufacturer...
>
>
>
> Personally and professionally I would prefer the universal measurement
> everywhere on the field.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Irina Leushina
>
> STS-USA
>
> Milpitas, CA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
>
> For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or
>
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> -----
>
> DesignerCouncil Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV
> 16.0.
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> -----
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
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> To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
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>
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> [log in to unmask]
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> 16.0.
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
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> ______________________________________________________________________
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> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
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> [log in to unmask]
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> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> DesignerCouncil Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV
> 16.0.
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
> the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF DesignerCouncil.
>
> To temporarily stop/(restart) delivery of DesignerCouncil send: SET
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> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
> This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are the property of Kimchuk
> Inc. and is solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom this
> e-mail is addressed. If you are not one of the named recipients or
> otherwise have reason to be believe that you have received this message in
> error, please notify the sender and delete this message immediately from
> your computer. Any other use, retention, dissemination, forwarding,
> printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited.
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> ______________________________________________________________________
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> 16.0.
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> To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
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> To temporarily stop/(restart) delivery of DesignerCouncil send: SET
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> Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815
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> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Mike Buetow
>
> PCD&F/Circuits Assembly
>
> w/m: 617-327-4702
>
> @mikebuetow
>
>
>
> PCB CHAT: A new way to engage the experts:
> https://console.mxlogic.com/redir/?8WXzz5T7Pr2rXX3VEVjdAVPmEBCmH2Bj_VkffGhBrBYzW4EUi9wI4zD205eygMM2gic3wIj30B7q0hkfG71Fu2093fwi0M92Ho4wc90c90a9f6m0a3M9d7b5jbwbl2qEwSCbA5gDteaRh4hGwd1EqbyUl3gaZRMoaxqF02nw78K38rX0F81hpWU3A4OoQooK6EnIbfn0o1pf3psQszgsd2PRM6A30acxU70WHEMlpyqeg8c30S95OUSnbykiUuD4TvAn3hOYyyODtUTsTkN3UBQfF8z3USGT2QzMl9qT00jr9EV7cCzASyOOCC--eud79JBcS2_id41Fr3x8QKCy0d2MAq810b3g36y0e-Aycfyq9W6y0eQIrDUvf5zZB0SOrodI9LLIfLFCSOsMVUmt
>
>
>
> The 2012 CIRCUITS ASSEMBLY Directory of EMS Companies:
> circuitsassembly.com/dems
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]<
> [log in to unmask]>]
> On Behalf Of Robert Wolfe
>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 9:51 AM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: [DC] IPC APEX Designer's Day
>
>
>
> Tom,
>
> Well I wouldn't say we could make such a general statement.
>
>
>
> I think everyone really gets used to calling them what their particular CAD
> System calls them, and they are all different. Problem is when you call up
> for support one generally start to adopt the terminology of the system one
> is using over time.
>
> Hey I'm finally comfortable with the term Decal. (even though I've done my
> share of hand taping back in the day).
>
>
>
> PADS is Decal
>
> Expedition is Cell
>
> Altium is Footprint
>
> Allegro is Symbol
>
> etc
>
> They are all different, so IPC could logically pick any of the above, I
> really don't see each CAD company changing their terms to one standard name
> any time soon.
>
> But stranger things have happened.
>
>
>
> Bob Wolfe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]<
> [log in to unmask]>]
> On Behalf Of Tom Hausherr
>
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 7:49 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: [DC] IPC APEX Designer's Day
>
>
>
> Cherie,
>
>
>
> Now we're exposing terms & definitions issues. I noticed you used the term
> "Footprint" when describing your PCB library parts, but IPC never uses that
> term. The IPC-7351 is the "Land Pattern" standard, not the Footprint
> Standard. However, everywhere I go EE engineers and PCB designers refer to
> there library parts as Footprints.
>
>
>
> Should IPC change the name of the standard to - IPC-7351C Footprint
> Standard?
>
>
>
> Does anyone on this forum refer to their PCB library parts in an everyday
> conversation with co-workers as "Land Patterns"? Or does everyone use the
> term Footprints?
>
>
>
> Example 1: if you created a calculator for library part creation, would you
> call it "The Footprint Calculator"?
>
>
>
> Example 2: do component manufacturer's use "Recommended Footprint"? or Land
> Pattern? or both?
>
>
>
> Example 3: does any CAE/CAD Vendor refer to PCB library parts as Land
> Patterns in their software?
>
>
>
> I've got issues today... Where's Jack Olson on this?
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]<
> [log in to unmask]>]
> On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
>
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 3:43 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: [DC] IPC APEX Designer's Day
>
>
>
> Yes, this part is interesting. I'm a big proponent for working in metric
> for the same reasons that others have expressed here.
>
>
>
> As Andy pointed out, many Americans have difficulty learning a new
> language.
>
> And for us, that's what it is. I've found that being able to think in
> both systems is one of the first steps.
>
>
>
> As I've been creating and maintaining an Altium component database for a
> company, the issue of metric vs inch is discussed from time to time. A
> good compromise has been to keep the footprint names in agreement with the
> IPC Metric base: "RESC2012X40N"; and put the "generic" inch based
> reference at the end of the description line: "Res 1.78K 1/8W 1% 0805".
> It
> makes for easy identification and gets everyone used to both names for the
> part.
>
>
>
> Cherie
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 3/19/2012 3:21:03 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
>
>
> Irina & All,
>
>
>
> What do you call your chip resistors and capacitors?
>
>
>
> EIA Inch Based - 1206, 0805, 0603, 0402 or IPC Metric Based - 3216, 2012,
> 1608, 1005
>
>
>
> This is where it gets interesting....
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: DesignerCouncil
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]>]
> On Behalf Of Irina Leushina
>
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 2:46 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: [DC] IPC APEX Designer's Day
>
>
>
> Yeah, there is sort of busy game out here...
>
> I'm playing mils with fab houses, mm with assembly/pnp vendors, making lib
> patterns depends how the component represents from manufacturer...
>
>
>
> Personally and professionally I would prefer the universal measurement
> everywhere on the field.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Irina Leushina
>
> STS-USA
>
> Milpitas, CA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
>
> For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or
>
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> -----
>
> DesignerCouncil Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV
> 16.0.
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
> the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF DesignerCouncil.
>
> To temporarily stop/(restart) delivery of DesignerCouncil send: SET
> DesignerCouncil NOMAIL/(MAIL) For additional information, or contact Keach
> Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> -----
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
>
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>
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>
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>
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> 16.0.
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
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>
> To temporarily stop/(restart) delivery of DesignerCouncil send: SET
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> Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or
>
> 847-615-7100 ext.2815
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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>
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> [log in to unmask]
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>
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> This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are the property of Kimchuk
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> e-mail is addressed. If you are not one of the named recipients or
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>
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>
>
> As I see it, it's really up to the CAD companies to participate in the
> standards development process and accept/adopt the decisions. To pursue
> their own "language" is unnecessarily confusing and non-value-added.
>
>
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Mike Buetow
>
> PCD&F/Circuits Assembly
>
> w/m: 617-327-4702
>
> @mikebuetow
>
>
>
> PCB CHAT: A new way to engage the experts:
> https://console.mxlogic.com/redir/?hRT76bKfCS4TTS7PhOCr9PCJhbcJm5aD_OEuvkzaTbV7Q9hMAY0E32wE-2hMmyD41w6p38Q6h50pZkd8xEyc6i0A0M73CM90o4xlI2gJcbj4m7iQ29sgbmt51obQ8ithaz8nFt50d3jhObxHw3GGBg718N0se58WI6LBN0mupAc3AOoLd1yUI-7L0ehjKGUosgoLc2jhONkOM0Uy0W35VyZgiWdBSO0U1Jh0wMc3sqy9APkOp4k0GqeqJCXYyUqenAkmkXL6XCWC8v4KxZ94ov6RmUmAu2FbmU02rpd78VAQsCQmmkQTTNPNEVdIFCMnWhEwdbos96BQQg1Em4zh081oq0oQg1TQAhxYjhfgQg1SBzs_3VUIvIE6S3r1JxdZZxZZcSKQe2Var
>
>
>
> The 2012 CIRCUITS ASSEMBLY Directory of EMS Companies:
> circuitsassembly.com/dems
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]<
> [log in to unmask]>]
> On Behalf Of Robert Wolfe
>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 9:51 AM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: [DC] IPC APEX Designer's Day
>
>
>
> Tom,
>
> Well I wouldn't say we could make such a general statement.
>
>
>
> I think everyone really gets used to calling them what their particular CAD
> System calls them, and they are all different. Problem is when you call up
> for support one generally start to adopt the terminology of the system one
> is using over time.
>
> Hey I'm finally comfortable with the term Decal. (even though I've done my
> share of hand taping back in the day).
>
>
>
> PADS is Decal
>
> Expedition is Cell
>
> Altium is Footprint
>
> Allegro is Symbol
>
> etc
>
> They are all different, so IPC could logically pick any of the above, I
> really don't see each CAD company changing their terms to one standard name
> any time soon.
>
> But stranger things have happened.
>
>
>
> Bob Wolfe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]<
> [log in to unmask]>]
> On Behalf Of Tom Hausherr
>
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 7:49 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: [DC] IPC APEX Designer's Day
>
>
>
> Cherie,
>
>
>
> Now we're exposing terms & definitions issues. I noticed you used the term
> "Footprint" when describing your PCB library parts, but IPC never uses that
> term. The IPC-7351 is the "Land Pattern" standard, not the Footprint
> Standard. However, everywhere I go EE engineers and PCB designers refer to
> there library parts as Footprints.
>
>
>
> Should IPC change the name of the standard to - IPC-7351C Footprint
> Standard?
>
>
>
> Does anyone on this forum refer to their PCB library parts in an everyday
> conversation with co-workers as "Land Patterns"? Or does everyone use the
> term Footprints?
>
>
>
> Example 1: if you created a calculator for library part creation, would you
> call it "The Footprint Calculator"?
>
>
>
> Example 2: do component manufacturer's use "Recommended Footprint"? or Land
> Pattern? or both?
>
>
>
> Example 3: does any CAE/CAD Vendor refer to PCB library parts as Land
> Patterns in their software?
>
>
>
> I've got issues today... Where's Jack Olson on this?
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]<
> [log in to unmask]>]
> On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
>
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 3:43 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: [DC] IPC APEX Designer's Day
>
>
>
> Yes, this part is interesting. I'm a big proponent for working in metric
> for the same reasons that others have expressed here.
>
>
>
> As Andy pointed out, many Americans have difficulty learning a new
> language.
>
> And for us, that's what it is. I've found that being able to think in
> both systems is one of the first steps.
>
>
>
> As I've been creating and maintaining an Altium component database for a
> company, the issue of metric vs inch is discussed from time to time. A
> good compromise has been to keep the footprint names in agreement with the
> IPC Metric base: "RESC2012X40N"; and put the "generic" inch based
> reference at the end of the description line: "Res 1.78K 1/8W 1% 0805".
> It
> makes for easy identification and gets everyone used to both names for the
> part.
>
>
>
> Cherie
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 3/19/2012 3:21:03 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> [log in to unmask] writes:
>
>
>
> Irina & All,
>
>
>
> What do you call your chip resistors and capacitors?
>
>
>
> EIA Inch Based - 1206, 0805, 0603, 0402 or IPC Metric Based - 3216, 2012,
> 1608, 1005
>
>
>
> This is where it gets interesting....
>
>
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: DesignerCouncil
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]>]
> On Behalf Of Irina Leushina
>
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 2:46 PM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: [DC] IPC APEX Designer's Day
>
>
>
> Yeah, there is sort of busy game out here...
>
> I'm playing mils with fab houses, mm with assembly/pnp vendors, making lib
> patterns depends how the component represents from manufacturer...
>
>
>
> Personally and professionally I would prefer the universal measurement
> everywhere on the field.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Irina Leushina
>
> STS-USA
>
> Milpitas, CA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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