George,
I'm in 'violent agreement' with your assessment of the situation...
In fact I expect to go back to school again this fall to 'edumacate' myself
some more too.
I wonder if I can cram some more info into that spot in my brain that has
the memory leak in it... hehe... I'm 48 and Microsoft hasn't come out with a
memory expansion unit for this model... yet... I think PKzip might work to
get a few more megabytes in there though...,<grin>
I'm sure the old light tables caused me to be a candidate for eye glasses...
I started hand tape design back in the late 60's while still in High School.
I had 20/15 vision when I started... now everything farther than my cubicle
walls is blurry... when do we get to retire? I heard they were pushing the
age out to 75 now... after all we live longer now... bah.
Best regards,
Bill Brooks
PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I.
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask]
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 1:57 PM
To: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: [DC] tech jobs overseas... [mx]
Well, that might not be far from the truth, maybe not truck driving, but...
I have been in electronics for about 33 years now, and that whole time
people have been replaced by automation. I miss the old hand taping days,
but I DON'T miss having a light table headache, nor can I imagine doing
boards with the size, trace widths, or layer counts with bishop tape and
rubylith. We have become so complacent that the latest CAD was never going
to replace us that we were sucker punched by the fact that somebody,
somewhere, can become their country's equivalent of "rich" doing what we do
for a fraction of what we need to make to just survive.
The infamous "bean counters" have been told for so many years that PCB
designers would be replaced by the next revision of software that it is a
short stretch for them to decide they should ship a board out to somebody
making $8 an hour rather than to send it to somebody making $30 an hour (and
remember, China and India don't have costs for benefits, social security,
retirement, and all those nice things we take for granted).
The trouble is that for a LOT of boards, the bean counters are right. NO,
outsourcing designs using the latest technology is foolish, but the vast
majority of designs are still fairly easy and can be completed by the
average newly graduated EE. And, folks, there are a LOT of third-world EEs
that see nothing demeaning about sitting at a CAD tube and designing boards,
how many new American EEs would be willing to do the same for $17K a year?
What can you do? Stay where you are and vanish as fast as yesterday's
digitizer operator? I don't think so. The only way to keep your security
is to edumacate yourself. Get your BSEE (not BSEET, guys, go for the math).
Or your BSCS, BSBA, whatever. Make yourself more valuable beyond designing
boards. Like it or not: the PCB Design "industry" has been shrinking for
decades. It will never disappear altogether, but one designer is going to
have to get something to distinguish themselves from another. CID
certification is okay as far as it goes, but you are going to need something
above and beyond that when the going gets tough, jobs get harder to find,
and everyone applying has a CID or 40 years of experience.
Is it going to guarantee a job? No, but you've a better chance if you show
you are progressing and willing to do what it takes to be valuable. You pay
your money and you takes your shot. You may lose, but it is nothing new.
I don't like it any more than you do, but I'm back in college at 50. It's
time for me to quit whining about how it should be and start doing
something...
My 2 cents. Your mileage may vary.
--
George Patrick
Tektronix, Inc.
Central Engineering, PCB Design Group
P.O. Box 500, M/S 39-512
Beaverton, OR 97077-0001
Phone: 503-627-5272 Fax: 503-627-5587
http://www.tektronix.com http://www.pcb-designer.com
It's my opinion, not Tektronix'
-----Original Message-----
From: Brooks,Bill [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 13:16
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] tech jobs overseas...
Hi Chris,
Good logical thoughts.
So I suppose the jobs 'tennis match' between the U.S. and India, Taiwan,
China, Korea, Mexico, Guatemala, Indonesia... etc... will just be that... a
contest of who's going to score the jobs... we can watch the jobs bounce
back and forth like the tennis ball until someone scores... point, game,
match...
'Hmmm... Where's that phone number for TruckMasters Driving school?... I
might need that...' (a quote from 'Goose' to 'Maverick' - from the movie
'TopGun')
Bill Brooks
PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I.
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 12:58 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] tech jobs overseas... [mx]
My $0.02:
I think outsourcing is inevitable. Tech jobs are no different than tennis
shoes as far as outsourcing goes. As a spender, you try to get the best
bang for your buck.
If the 'intangibles' (quality, customer satisfaction, etc.) drive the
bottom line down, you won't outsource for long; the job will come back
in-house. But if a beancounter can show that 5% of the customer base will
go away because they aren't happy speaking to a service rep with an accent,
but that overall profits will increase anyway, I'm guessing most companies
will choose to maximize profits. (If the average company is that concerned
with customer satisfaction, how did these automated phone systems ever make
it into virtually every business in America? Press 1 to answer...)
Anyway, I agree that some jobs will come back. But they may go away again
later as the out-source learns how to deal with the issues that lost them
the business. It'll be interesting (like a wreck on the highway is
interesting) to see which jobs ultimately show a better pay-off staying
in-house and which don't.
Some jobs may cycle back and forth forever. Having worked in Big Automotive
for the last 20+ years, you see cycles and fads. Matrix management.
Centralize, De-centralize, Re-centralize. These guys need to be near the
customer - they need to be near the factory - need to be near R&D.... It's
just that now the globe is the gameboard instead of the U.S.
If you want something (your job) to stay in-house, find a way to quantify
the cost of outsourcing-related communication problems, which is what most
tech outsourcing problems boil down to, one way or another. Demonstrate why
outsourcing will actually drive the bottom line down, not up. Be prepared
to make your case repeatedly (every time somebody different comes in
anywhere above you in the food chain). Hope that the inevitable test cases
prove you right.
I do think the best way to survive long-term is to become part of the new
process, which will include more and more outsourcing. Someone has to tell
them what we want and see if we got what we wanted., etc.....
It's all about the money.
-Chris (el CID)
"Brooks,Bill"
<[log in to unmask]> To:
[log in to unmask]
Sent by: DesignerCouncil cc:
<[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re:
[DC] tech jobs overseas...
03/31/2004 12:42 PM
Please respond to
"(Designers Council
Forum)"; Please respond to
"Brooks,Bill"
Good one Mitch,
I wonder how much Mr. Fleisher has invested in overseas outsourcing
companies... :)
If you listen to all the advertisement on AM radio,(which is hard to avoid
if you like talk radio), you should have refinanced your home at least 3
times this year, and probably have purchased large quantities of male
enhancement drugs and bought gold because it IS going to go up in value...
I think what's behind this is that these guys are trying to influence the
execs to invest in overseas outsourcing... much like AM radio... if you say
it enough people start to believe it... which in itself may also be a sign
that there must be some reason why we should be wary of the 'sales
pitch'...
Bill Brooks
PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I.
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
-----Original Message-----
From: Mitch S. Morey [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 9:09 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] tech jobs overseas... [mx]
>
> http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P79592.asp
> Interesting article on tech jobs being sent overseas...
> Looks like, after wading through the editorial 'spin'...
Back at ya. :)
http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/Embrace_offshoring_or_el
se.html
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