This has got to be one of the very best slants I've ever seen on the
subject. That's a lot of common sense very well put.
Andy Kowalewski
Chairman, Exec Board Designers Council
(and Senior Designer by hair colour alone)
Phone National (02) 9499 4853
International +61 2 9499 4853
Skype andyk_01
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of JaMi
Smith
Sent: Saturday, 1 October 2005 16:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] Difference between PCB designer and PCB design Engineer
The basic answer to the question is knowledge, or more specifically,
acquired
knowledge, or the lack thereof.
One additionally has to take into account the fact that the tools which we
use to
perform the jobs have evolved over the years from tape, an X-acto knife, and
a
mechanical pencil, to a Computer, a CAD Software Package, and a mouse, but
assuming
all that, and leaving it all aside, let me digress . . .
Back there in the dark ages, all of these titles meant something, and
usually they
had to be earned.
Not only were there Junior, Senior, and plain old Draftsman, there were
Junior,
Senior, and plain old Designers, all of which could be further defined as
Mechanical, Electrical, or Electronic, and sometimes combinations such as
Electro -
Mechanical.
Back then, much was made out of whether or not your job position required
you to
wear a tie or not, and to be an Engineer, meant that you actually really
were one,
as in having went to Collage somewhere and earned a Degree that actually had
the
word Engineer printed on it.
Engineers went thru the same permutations of Junior, Senior, and plain old
whatever
in terms of the add on specialties that went into the title.
Occasionally, if you were really really good at something they might call
you a
Specialist of some kind.
Seems to me that people stopped having to earn the titles somewhere in the
early
seventies when Job Shops and Job Shopping became so prevalent, where you
could be
"rented out" as a Junior Something on Monday, and Senior Something Else
Friday, or
vice versa, and it seemed to become more of a question of what you could BS
your way
thru the door as, as opposed to what title or position you could actually
earn.
It also seemed that the Titles that you could earn thru a promotion within a
company
used to carry more weight than the Titles you would get by switching
companies, but
on the other hand, to get the pay increase that you deserved you really did
have to
move to another company, or at least threaten to.
I can remember Shopping at Litton in 1975 as a plain old Draftsman, when on
a Friday
afternoon I said that there was an error in an ECN they wanted me to
incorporate.
They took everything off of my board and dropped a pile of new stuff on it,
and
said: "Here, work on this". Monday morning I called the Shop, and told them
that
they had given me other work to do, and they said: "Yeah, we know, you're
now a
Senior Designer, making such and such".
I once had a job, where I was a Senior Designer, but instead of working in
the
Drafting Department, I actually worked in the Engineering Department, where
I was
best described as a "Trouble Shooter", putting out all of the big fires that
came up
on a hot Project, which really covered everything from Manufacturing, to
Purchasing,
to Vender Selection and Certification, to hand holding the Board house to
tell them
how to refine their processes to be able to correctly make our PCB's, to
solving
Actual RF, EMI/EMC, and Electrical problems, to some Actual Layout of some
Boards,
to figuring out why a new PCB Assembly wouldn't work, or work as expected,
or
finally, to conducting a "one man" Comprehensive Design Review of each and
every
Board in the whole Project, from a Layout, Mechanical, and Electronics
perspective.
I occasionally was even asked to hold the hand of some of the Engineers in
certain
Technical areas. When it came time for my Review, I got rated as "Good",
with no
further comments or recommendations from my boss, who was the project
manager. I
went thru the roof. Seems that she was under the impression that I was
already a
Senior Engineer, at a high rate of pay, and was extremely surprised when I
told her
that I was only a Senior Designer, the same classification as some of the
guys down
the hall in the Drafting Department. At that point, she went thru the roof
also, and
we both went to the Manager of Engineering. Notwithstanding the fact that I
was
doing the work of one of the top Engineers in the Engineering Department on
this
specific Project, the Company still had a strict Policy of "No Degree No
Title".
What they ended up doing was creating a Position and Title for me called
"Senior
Technical Specialist" (whatever that is), and giving me an appropriate pay
increase
to go with the title.
Respecting Hourly (non-Exempt) verses Salaried (Exempt) pay, I find that in
my
experience for the most part it has more to do with whether you are an
actual
Employee verses a Job Shopper / Consultant / Temp / Etc.. My first two Jobs,
back in
1966, as an Electronics Draftsman Grade B, and a Junior Draftsman, were both
Hourly,
as a regular Employee, but my third Job, as a Designer, was Salaried. From
that
point on, most of my jobs have pretty much followed the Exempt as an
Employee - non
Exempt as a Temp / Consultant / Shopper. Their is occasionally sometimes a
distinction within certain companies based on whether you are working for
the
Drafting / Design Department or for the Engineering Department, but I have
seen this
less and less in recent years.
Then there is the issue of what people cram into a title, or more correctly,
what
they can stretch a given title to cover.
I earned the title of Designer in taking my third job back in early 1967,
and I have
considered myself a Designer ever since. Within a week on my first job as an
Electronics Draftsman Grade B, drawing schematics and taping boards, I was
asking
engineers what these little symbols on the schematic were and how they
operated, and
having learned a few thing about the electronics on the boards that I was
taping, by
asking such questions, I was able to spot errors fairly quickly, and even
offer
solutions when I encountered these errors. Needles to say, I was able to
rise thru
the ranks fairly quickly. I was curious, creative, and wanted to learn. I
didn't
just perform the same task every day and simply improve in proficiency as
most do,
and which I did also, but I additionally also tried to learn something new
about my
job and what I was working on every day.
On the other extreme there are what I would call a CAD Jockey (which has
already
been brought up earlier in this thread). To me, they are a person that can
learn to
use a specific CAD Tool, of whatever variety, be it Electronic or
Mechanical, very
well, and become very very fast and very very proficient at using that Tool,
without
having the slightest knowledge whatsoever of what they are actually doing. I
ran
into my first real CAD Jockeys back in the early 80's at TRW, working on
Lockheed
CADAM, an early Mechanical CAD System. This one guy got hired because he was
somebody's wife's little brother, and he was part time while he was going to
school.
He could enter a Drawing or make a change in lightening speed, provided that
you
spelled everything out clearly and in detail, in a sketch or an ECN, but he
couldn't
think on his own, and as a result, you couldn't ask him to do something over
the
phone, or tell him you wanted him to add some feature and expect him to work
it out
or fill in the details. He was great at sitting next to a Mechanical
Engineer who
didn't know CADAM and doing the data entry for him, line by line, dimension
by
dimension, but he was totally, and I do mean totally, worthless on his own.
I
occasionally still run into a CAD Jockey these days, but of course his or
her title
is something on the order of Senior Designer or the like.
So what do I consider myself? I am a Designer. I am real Designer. A
Designer from
back in the days when being a Designer really meant something, and when
having the
title of Designer meant that you really did have to earn it. When being a
Designer
meant that you could "design" anything from the ground up and solve any
problem
within the entire Electronic or Mechanical Design and Manufacturing
spectrum.
Actually, I consider myself a Senior Designer, and additionally I sometimes
I
describe myself as a non-Degreed Electronic Engineer. I am a lot of other
things
too, like a Machinist (since I was 12 (employed as one in 1972)), like a
Programmer
(BASIC since 1972, Fortran and Assembler since 1975), like a Computer
Builder / User
/ Designer (since 1975 (yes I still own several Altar's and IMSAI's)), Like
an
Inventor (since I was old enough to think (Patent in 1976)), and in general
a Jack
of all Trades, and a pretty good one at that.
But basically, just a Designer.
But how do you sell yourself, as just a Designer, or Senior Designer, or a
Design
Engineer, when you are trying to compete for a Job Position, when you are
not only
up against other people who may be just as worthy and talented as yourself,
if not
more, in every respect, but also against people who are lyingthru their you
know
what on their Resume or exaggerating every position that they may have ever
had
(especially in an era when past employers may be afraid of being sued for
saying
anything at all, let alone anything negative), or up against people who
really are
nothing more than a CAD Jockey.
How can one really convey their own worth and experience, as compared to the
CAD
Jockey sitting next to them?
Simply within the Spectrum of Printed Circuit Board Design and Layout, I am
glad
that IPC has created the CID and CID+ Certifications, since within a narrow
framework, these designations do convey a minimum degree of knowledge and
proficiency of the holder. On the one perspective, some might say that these
Titles
simply show nothing more than that you are knowledgeable of industry specs
and
guidelines, and have paid a few shekels to buy a few specs from IPC and paid
a few
more to take a test, but on the other hand, these Titles really are
something that
can convey a certain level of achievement within this specific segment of
the
industry, and for that purpose, I am very appreciative of the
certifications, and
very thankful to IPC for creating the programs. Unfortunately, as helpful as
this
is, it doesn't really answer the question at hand.
How do you really compare yourself to the requirements of a specific job, or
more
realistically, how do you realistically compare yourself to the next guy?
Isn't that what you are really asking when you are asking what the
difference is
between a PCB Designer, and a PCB Design Engineer?
Lets first strip off the PCB modifier, so that we can get to the basic
question of
what the difference is between a Designer and a Design Engineer.
Next, we need to realize that one can be titled a Design Engineer because he
or she
is in the field of Design and has an Engineering Degree, but I don't think
that that
really fits into the current equation, or the actual question at hand.
While it may seem a little crude or limiting to some, it seems that the
question
fits into what could broadly be termed as within the Drafting Department (at
lest in
the older perspective), what is the difference between a Designer and a
Design
Engineer.
Excluding the Engineering Degree, and within the realm where there is a
specific
distinction between Drafting and Engineering, I would say that the
progression of
jobs and related capability is in the following order: Draftsman; Designer;
and then
Design Engineer; all of which have their own gradations such as Junior,
regular, and
Senior, and all of which can have additional modifiers that may pertain to
specialties.
Some may balk with being assigned to the Drafting Department, and in many
cases it
may not even be called that anymore, but strictly speaking, there is
Drafting, and
there is Engineering, and they really are separate, even if the Drafting
Department
has come to be been called the Design Department for the last 20 years (or
something
similar), or even the CAD Department.
Additionally, I believe that there is something else that enters the picture
as we
progress from Draftsman to Designer (or some might say as we progress from
Designer
to Design Engineer), along with real hard earned "practical" experience,
that hasn't
been mentioned before, and that is an additional expertise and knowledge in
the
realm of Design, Packaging, and Manufacturing, that on the one hand might
approach
that of an Engineer, and yet on the other hand, an expertise and knowledge
that is
of a much different perspective than that which might "just" be had by an
Engineer.
It's kind of hard to put exactly what I am thinking of here into words, but
maybe it
relates to going back to what I think it takes to be a "real" Designer.
In the final analysis, maybe I can't answer the question of what the
difference is
between a PCB Designer and PCB Design Engineer, other than to say that I
earned the
title of Senior Design Engineer while employed at TRW in the early 80's, for
whatever it 's worth, but I would put it this way:
Do you understand the operation of each and every component on that PCB that
you are
working on, not only from a Mechanical and Packaging perspective, but also
from an
Electronics and Operational perspective, both individually and as a part of
a
circuit and an overall assembly and part of a larger system? Do you catch
errors on
a regular basis, and can you fix the errors yourself, before you report back
to the
Engineer? Can you explain to your boss why the last 13 DRC Errors that your
system
kicked out really are not Errors at all, and more importantly, can you
convince him
that you are correct?
Some might think that maybe I am being a little hard or even a little
elitist here,
but I'd say that if you can't answer these questions in the affirmative,
then you
are not yet a PCB Design Engineer, in spite of what your actual Title might
be.
But then again, how many of us that are called Designers, actually are?
Maybe I really shouldn't go there, since I have probably already exceeded
the
maximum number of enemies made allowed in any given single post.
JaMi Smith
Designer
* * * * *
----- Original Message -----
From: "Susy Webb" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [DC] Difference between PCB designer and PCB design Engineer
> Joe asked me the question below, and my response had as much to do with
the
original question from Brad as it did from Joe's question, so I am passing
it on
here too.
>
> Hi Joe,
>
> I was considered a Sr PCB Designer for many years. In fact, that is still
what I
call myself. To me, there is little difference between that and a Sr PCB
Layout
Engineer, which is my current title. But that is my opinion.... I would be
the same
quality of designer no matter what my title was. The point is that the
company's
title for me reflects the company's understanding that there is a huge
amount of
engineering that goes into a designer's job these days, and as such the
title and
job grade reflect that. It is a little bit of that recognition that we as a
profession have been begging for all these years.
>
> Early on, we were all given titles like Drafter or Cad operator. And even
then,
when connecting the dots was a more descriptive term for what we did as a
profession
because we didn't have to worry about rise time, crosstalk, signal
integrity, EMI,
etc., etc., we were not drafters. So I have never cared for that term, nor
Cad
Operator. Some companies are slow to raise the title and description "bar"
and some
are not. Some companies are fairly clueless as to what we do!
>
> In my opinion, a designer of any quality today has to do everything they
possibly
can to have a working knowledge of many different forms of engineering to
create a
quality product. That includes taking responsibility for our own career by
reading
and learning, being an active member of the Designer's Council to learn and
participate, and attending conferences (among other things). The engineering
world
we live in is changing rapidly and if we aren't doing anything to catch up
and/or
keep up, then we are moving backwards. So, Sr anything should not indicate
years of
work, but ability and knowledge base. Again... just my opinion.
>
> So while you did not ask for a soap box, I hope you don't mind that you
got one.
The answer to your question is that we do not have anyone with a title
"Drafter"
partially because I would fight against that title (even for a beginner.. Jr
PCB
Designer would be better) and we do have a PCB Designer and a Sr PCB
designer and a
couple of EE's who occasionally lay out boards.... but that's a soap box for
another
day.
>
> Best Regards,
> Susy
>
>
> >
> > From: "Johnson, Joseph SEA" <[log in to unmask]>
> > Date: 2005/09/28 Wed AM 10:20:04 CDT
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: RE: [DC] Difference between PCB designer and PCB design
Engineer
> >
> > Susy,
> >
> > Does your company also have a Sr. PCB Designer / Drafter ?
> >
> > Joe J.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Susy
> > Webb
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 10:34 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [DC] Difference between PCB designer and PCB design
> > Engineer
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I agree with Matthew and others... Ours is a very challenging job IF it
> > is done right, and there are so many more things that are in our realm
> > of responsibility that CAD or PCB draftsman just does not work any more.
> > My last three companies have called me a Sr PCB Layout Engineer and I
> > like that, and think it is quite descriptive of what I do!
> >
> > Susy
> >
> >
> > >
> > > From: Matthew Lamkin <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Date: 2005/09/27 Tue AM 03:00:12 CDT
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: [DC] Difference between PCB designer and PCB design
> > > Engineer
> > >
> > > There may well be 2 different types of engineer designing boards, but
> > people, don't think that just because someone does not initially design
> > the actual circuit they are any lesser!
> > > In fact it could be the opposite.
> > >
> > > My job title is PCB Draftsman, I don't "design" the circuit, other
> > engineers do that, they fill out a BOM & raise ECN's too.
> > >
> > > I take their fag packet drawings & ideas & turn them into a
> > > manufacturable product, adding the EMC/DFT etc bits into them & coming
> > up with a finished board that is both well suited to the job & is
> > manufacturable.
> > >
> > > There are so many degree qualified electronic engineers that although
> > they really know their stuff in electronics are absolutely useless at
> > board layout, they have to do all sorts of other jobs as well as design
> > a board.
> > >
> > > They forget EMC, forget decoupling, terminations & how to make them so
> > that the assembly dept does not struggle to build them, I have to do all
> > these things daily.
> > >
> > > I look on myself as a specialist in the field, doing board layout all
> > my working day, not just a small percentage of it. It has been said that
> > my boards are a damn site better than any that the "engineers" could
> > ever do.
> > >
> > > Matthew Lamkin.
> > > hookemuper!
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
> > > Kevin L. Seaman
> > > Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 7:40 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: [DC] Difference between PCB designer and PCB design
> > > Engineer
> > >
> > >
> > > Brad,
> > >
> > > In 1978 I worked with Dave Helm at Floating Point Systems in
> > > Beaverton, Oregon. He use to say that there were TWO kinds of PCB
> > Designers:
> > >
> > > 1) the kind who DESIGN boards
> > >
> > > and...
> > >
> > > 2) the kind who HOOK 'EM UP
> > >
> > > Kevin L. Seaman
> > > OrCAD CIS Librarian
> > > Allegro PCB Librarian
> > > Sr. Staff PCB Layout Engineer
> > > Broadcom Corp. Irvine, CA
> > > (949)926-5656 (ext. 65656)
> > >
> > > P.S.
> > > Yes, I made up those job titles all by myself...
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> > > Jaurique, Brad
> > > Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 10:52 AM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: [DC] Difference between PCB designer and PCB design Engineer
> > >
> > > All,
> > >
> > > I am in debate with my Director, who is/was a mechanical
> > > Engineer, over what the difference is between these two job
> > > descriptions. I believe some of our designers do the job design
> > > engineer and I want to prove it.
> > >
> > > Does anyone have job descriptions etc on these. I am also
> > > trying to rewrite our very weak current descriptions. We have 3
> > > Senior designers who all do the job differently and have different
> > > levels of experience. I don't feel you should have a title senior
> > > because you have been designing for lots of years. You could have lots
> >
> > > of years of the same experience. You should be titled Senior due to
> > > range of experience and level of that.
> > >
> > > Sorry if I am ranting but this is important to me.
> > >
> > > Brad Jaurique C.I.D.
> > > Senior PCB Designer
> > > Pelco
> > > (559)292-1981 ext. 2347
> > > [log in to unmask]
> > > Tell me and I forget; Show me and I remember; Involve me and I
> > understand.
> > > ================
> > > Confidentiality Note:
> > > The information contained in this transmission is legally privileged
> > > and confidential, intended only for the use of the individual or
> > > entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended
> > > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> > > distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
> >
> > > If you receive this communication in error, please delete the message
> > > and notify us immediately by telephone call to +1-559-292-1981.
> > > ================
> > >
> > >
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