Hi, Brent.
You wrote:
"Nice spam Nick..."
If you step back and look at the whole picture, this whole discussion chain
is 'spam' and you're (plural) only making PCB Libraries more popular.
Thanks, guys. Abercrombie and Fitch got rich off controversy.
----
You wrote:
"Nick (formally of IPC)"
Yes, I was with IPC. But I quit IPC before PCB Libraries was even
incorporated. Hmm - could it be a sign that maybe IPC and its top level
management doesn't make as much as the rumors say? I find it strange that a
few of the people who believe IPC has richly-paid staff also believe PCBL is
wealthy (see next comment).
----
You wrote:
"Perhaps a more palatable approach would have been
for IPC to write, or contract someone's services
to write such a program."
IPC contracted out the SM-782 calculator and went in permanent red (never
recovered the money spent) on that project. From the offline discussion,
some people seem to think PCBL is very rich. PCBL has bills and contractors
to pay, just like everyone else. We live in a capitalistic society.
If you can create a better or cheaper software, do it. It won't take long
after you look at the time you're spending and the ledger that you will have
to share your cost with others (ie charge people and become "for profit").
But don't get discouraged, if you like what you do and think it's
beneficial, be persistent.
----
You wrote:
"In addition the current arrangement obviously gives
PCBL an advantage since it links PCBL to IPC."
If you feel the industry needs a tool based on any IPC standard and you can
create it, I'm sure IPC would be happy to talk with you about it. In my
humble opinion, you should approach them as you would with a solution, not a
complaint, and you will be heard.
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: Alcorn, Brent [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 8:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: [DC] Propaganda Rant
Nick (formally of IPC),
Nice spam Nick...
More to the point, the whole philosophy of having a standards/trade
organization is not to promote one company or another isn't it? The goal
is to promote standards and the whole industry, not someone's or
company's software, design services or whatever..... In fact it is
forbidden or frowned upon by this forum to self-promote.
Perhaps a more palatable approach would have been for IPC to write, or
contract someone's services to write such a program. That way IPC would
have ownership and wouldn't be endorsing any one company or person.
In addition the current arrangement obviously gives PCBL an advantage
since it links PCBL to IPC; a free endorsement lets say. Doesn't sound
like that is in line with IPC's mission statement, but, that MHO.
Have a nice day....
Brent
My opinion not Analogic's.
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nick
Ban (PCBL)
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 1:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] Propaganda Rant
In the time it took to type the original rant, one person - somewhere in
the world - built half a dozen high-quality parts right into their CAD
tool ...from scratch.
For those whose heads spin at this rate and prefer the traditional way
of design, a free (and limited) version of the LP Calculator is still on
track for release this summer. This version will not be as powerful as
the current LP Calculator, but still more powerful than the SM-782.
For those wondering, the Pantheon outputs are now available; Protel and
Expedition coming right up.
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ed
Murphy
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 11:47 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] Propaganda Rant
Just a question...
Have you guys used this program? Or are we just be philosophical about
the whole topic and approach of sales.... if so then continue on
ranting... you have earned the right.. if not... try it... it saves me
a &*@#-load of time and is worth the money.... even in US dollars!!!
Just my opinion....
Ed Murphy CID
The great white north chapter.... Ottawa eh!
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Brooks,Bill
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 12:07 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] Propaganda Rant
Just a cautious word of advice... Please, before you go accusing the
Executive Board... be informed about the IPC and who runs it and just
how the Designers Council fits into the overall organization.
http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=2.1#
Most of us have opinions about the organization and those working in its
interests and MOST of us don't really know much about them or it at all.
I urge you to check into it before casting dispersions about the folks I
know are very giving and helpful and aren't making a penny off their
contributions. Not to say that there aren't some who aren't so engaged
and deserve the criticism... be that as it may...
Not everyone is a mercenary or 'in it for the money'.... besides,
designers aren't walking around with large bags of money to spend...
especially on specs.
Best regards,
Bill Brooks - KG6VVP
PCB Design Engineer, C.I.D.+, C.I.I.
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
_______________________________________
Member of the San Diego Chapter of the IPC Designers Council
Communications Officer, Web Manager http://dcchapters.ipc.org/SanDiego/
http://pcbwizards.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Alcorn, Brent [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] Propaganda Rant
Hi Chris,
Well put, and I too disagree with their approach.
Brent
Sr. P.C. Designer
Analogic Corporation
PS. Makes me wonder if I really want to be certified by this entity??
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Chris Ball
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:32 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [DC] Propaganda Rant
Since it's been quiet lately....
<RANT>
When I was a kid growing up in the USA, the USSR was the bad guy. The
thing I remember most (besides Kruschev with a hole in his shoe) was
that their government was always spewing complete bull$h!t to their
people. And the government's version was the only version the media
dispersed. That wasn't really the worst aspect of their regime, but
that's what I remember most vividly.
It seems to me that America is sliding down the same path these days.
You look the camera in the eye and spew. Your story doesn't even have to
be very plausible. This technique seems to be working for our current
regime and for several ex-CEO's. I concede that our current leaders are
not the first to employ the tactic (I would argue that the gravity of
the subject matter is vastly different, but that's a whole 'nuther
thing).
And now it seems to propagating into the general population.
IPC-7351 is different than any IPC spec has ever been. If you purchase
it, you receive a piece of software from an outside company as part of
your purchase. If you use this software, you find that more goodies are
available to you from the authors for a price. I'm not saying whether
that's a good thing or a bad thing, just that it's true.
Now it sounds as though the next highly anticipated spec, IPC-2152, will
be similar in that it will be linked with an outside company's
product(s).
When posts on this forum appeared questioning the way things were being
done, in both cases, responses quickly appeared informing us that these
guys put up a lot of their own money and time just to get this done.
These postings implied that people out there are making great personal
sacrifices to improve things for us designers, with little or no thought
of personal gain. No backroom deals or insider trading, nothing sneaky
here.
The point being obscured by this propaganda is that IPC specifications
are now endorsing and bundling specific commercial products. It appears
to be a trend.
Is this acceptable to the general population of specification consumers,
or does it seem a little shady? Are there any other examples of
standards organizations integrating a limited subset of a commercial
software application (with hooks to other for-purchase features) into
their published specifications?
-Chris (el-CID)
P.S.
If I decided to open a restaurant, I'd put a lot of my own time and
money into it. I'd hope my customers really loved the food, left happy,
and came back often; that dining at my establishment affected their
lives in a positive way. I'd care deeply about people who eat, and
honestly have their best interests at heart.
But it would all be driven by self-interest. I wouldn't do it if I
didn't think I could at least make a living at it. I don't think anyone
would. I wouldn't appreciate being represented as some sort of culinary
martyr in the food forums.
And if I was in cahoots with the food critics and travel guides, and on
the premier gourmet publication's board of directors, that'd be great
for me.
</RANT>
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