Nick-
I waited as long as I could.... Maybe I'm way off with this, and if so, I
apologize, but... I'm thinking you might be a little biased.
Does PCBLibraries get a % on every copy of 7351 sold? I have to say it
feels kind of funny to get funneled into your company's website from a
utility delivered as part of a spec from IPC.
Even if PCBLibraries gets no $ from the sale of the spec, your voluntary
participation garners you a whole bunch of exposure. Doesn't seem kosher to
me somehow... especially knowing that you recently left IPC.
I sense a change in the force, Luke.
-Chris
"Nick Ban (PCBL)"
<[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask]
Sent by: DesignerCouncil cc:
<[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design
Specifications
03/21/2005 01:46 PM
Please respond to Nick
Please don't misunderstand me, I am not for IPC becoming wealthy. However,
I
would like to see it operational 5 years from now.
Lowering cost of the standards may get more people to purchase more, but
that does not necessarily mean that IPC will be able to make up its
expenses
in creating and promoting of the standard (ie sustain itself).
It seems to me it's about choosing the lesser of two evils:
1. Higher cost standards to cover the expenses
- Some cannot afford and probably illegally reproduce
standards; operating expenses met.
2. Low cost standards to make more affordable
- cost of creating standards remains high (even with the
cutbacks of the last several years), and liabilities
cannot be paid despite the fact that everybody in
the industry uses the standards.
While most standard users would prefer option 2, it is not a good business
model of any company that isn't otherwise adequately funded.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Johnston [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 11:54 AM
To: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications
Nick,
I don't think it about getting specifications and training for free. Its
more about getting more affordable for the individual designer.
Whether a member is an individual or a company should not be an issue when
discounting to members. We all want standards to help get the job done
right, but if they are unattainable then eventually the standard will be no
more. It is more the individual then a company that keeps the standards a
standard. I know from where I sit I get the (non-member)company I work for
to buy standards from the IPC, because they are necessary. I am the only
member at this company and in the past have had some trouble getting them
to
bite on the IPC standards.
What I'm trying to say is that because a company has individual member(s),
the company will buy standards at full price, and Rane (the company I work
for) buys these standards for both Engineering and manufacturing.
I would think this is worth more than a discount.
Well thanks for letting me rant.
Ray Johnston
Lead CAD Designer
Rane Corporation
425-355-6000
rayj@rane,com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Ban (PCBL)" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications
>I saw the movie, not sure if that's exactly what it was called, but I know
> what you're talking about. So IPC should basically give its standards and
> training materials out to the industry for free to help it out.
> Consequently, shut down due to lack of revenue. Isn't what you're saying
> going to benefit the industry once and never again?
>
> IPC cannot function like the government and subsidize development without
> getting some kind of income. The government gets your taxes (unless one
> figures out clever loopholes and doesn't want to pay their due), IPC
> doesn't
> (that's why it charges for its standards).
>
> Companies like Hallmark, Coretec, Mentor and Overland can help the
> designers
> more directly because its core business is in another area and very
> profitable. IPC mainly relies on membership dues (how much was the DC
> membership again, $50? per year?) and sale of standards, among some other
> things.
>
> I see how what you're proposing would benefit the industry in the next
> year,
> but 2, 3 or 5 years from now, who will? I suspect another entity would
> arise
> to fill that void with the same intent of supporting its continued
> existence. Do we then we can ask them to give away its standards just the
> same "for the sake of the industry"... and then repeat the cycle?
>
> Keeping in mind most volunteers are doing it as a "side job" to get
> visibility and other intangible benefits, why would anyone even bother
> investing in creating, promoting and updating standards?
>
> Like I said, if volunteers can find it in their hearts to contribute much
> more than they do now (ie travel/hotel and time), for example
coordinating
> and signing off on meeting room contracts, catering, promotion campaigns,
> graphics work, etc., the list goes on... basically satisfy all the
> requirements of creating such reliable standards, why don't they?
>
> Hint: it would cost too much time and effort (not just once, but on an
> ongoing basis) and they would probably end up having to charge people for
> the standards like IPC.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> Brooks,Bill
> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 4:53 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications
>
> Nick... I see what you are saying...
>
> It just doesn't work that way in my mind.
>>From where I stand, The industry as a whole stands to gain the most from
> better trained designers... why not have 'the industry' help fund their
> education? They make grants and scholarships to colleges and
universities,
> they support their political affiliations, why not invest in the designer
> community that stands to make them the most profit through adopting
better
> design practices? Some companies already see this and are doing something
> about it...
>
> We expect our government to spend money on R&D to further our economic
> strength... well, why not support the designers of the products we want
to
> fuel our economy with? 'Pay it Forward' so to speak... you ever see that
> movie? If not, you should rent it... what a great concept. Just like
> designers need to invest in their careers, the PCB industry and the
> foundations that support industry need to invest in its PCB Designers.
>
> That's where I am coming from... but hey it's just an idea... maybe it
> will
> never catch on... or then again it might... and what companies are going
> to
> get to claim the honors and praise from it if it does catch on and the
> industry invests in it's designer community... ? I know Coretec and
Mentor
> are investing in the Designer community now... I'm sure there are others
> that designers can name that have been big heroes, like Hallmark Circuits
> for one, like Overland Storage for another, who helped the local
Designers
> here... I think there is a great opportunity here to 'raise the bar' to a
> higher level and really make an investment in the DC... make it a much
> stronger force for bringing together designers and industry and
> strengthening our place in the world. We just need to see folks think of
> it
> as an investment in their own futures as corporations.
>
> Then someday making specs available will be a trivial matter. And they
> won't
> have to do all the copy protection 'stuff' to the disks. The DC will be
in
> the black instead of the red... and I will keep hoping for the day. Who
> knows I may see it in my lifetime... it could happen.... not everyone is
a
> mercenary.
>
>
> Bill Brooks - KG6VVP
> PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I.
> Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
> e-mail:[log in to unmask]
> http://www.dtwc.com
> http://pcbwizards.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nick Ban (PCBL) [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 12:55 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications
>
> When you take the top-mgmt compensation and prop it up against the
overall
> costs (many specified below), it just won't compare. As much as I'd like
> to
> believe that it could, I seriously doubt that by reducing - even
> completely
> eliminating - top management compensation will put any kind of
significant
> dent in the cost of the standards, forget about 'slashing' the price to
> make
> them much more affordable.
>
> Programming, website management, graphics design, meeting planning,
> production, training, accounting, and customer support all sum up to much
> more than what top management makes, and this is only staff compensation.
> Then factor in the other operational costs.
>
> Our capitalistic society will find a way of doing things cheaper. If
> someone
> in the electronics industry knew that they can earn a decent living
> creating, producing, promoting, selling, and updating reliable and ANSI
> approved standards of the same caliber as IPC's ****at cheaper cost****,
> I'm
> inclined to believe they would have done it already, especially during
the
> industry's poor employment conditions of the past few years.
>
>
> Nick
>
>
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