You will be safe with 6mils min for 1700V. I would design to 8 mil separation. It will allow a use multi ply core and prepreg.
Veronika Anderson C.I.D | Sr. Electrical/Mechanical Design Engineer | Excelitas Technologies
Office: +1 626.967.9521 x 236
1330 East Cypress Street, Covina, CA 91724 USA
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-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jack Olson
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2014 8:55 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] z-axis separation for high voltage
Thanks for taking the time to respond (and to everyone else who responded too), and I understand your point about derating, but I am more focused on the STARTING clearance for 1700V,
IPC Table 6-1 gives me something slightly over 125 mils, and my board is only 62 mil thickness, about half!
I wasn't initially worried
because if you look at the slash sheets for dielectric material, its more in the KV range PER MIL but now I'm starting to wonder...
Where can I learn more about this?
On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 10:45 AM, Joel S. Peiffer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> William provides some good advice to derate the materials insulation
> resistance significantly as well as providing some of the reasons for
> doing this (copper surface roughness, dielectric defects).
>
> I would like to go into a little more detail on derating. The boards
> operating conditions (temp, humidity) and expected service life need
> to be taken into account as well. High temp/humidity operating
> environments may call for additional derating. The overlap area of
> high voltage should also be taken into consideration. If the area is
> very small, the likelihood of a material defect is very small.
> However, if the area is very large, the likelihood of a material
> defect will increase in proportion to the area and the material may
> have to be derated appropriately. Finally, the derating should be
> dependent on the dielectric thickness. Thus, thicker materials need
> to be derated less than thinner materials. For example, a 0.5 mil
> defect may not have much impact on a 5 mil thick material but it will
> have severe consequences on a
> 1 mil thick material.
>
> If you need to utilize very thin dielectrics to ensure you meet you z
> axis thickness requirements, you may want to look at materials other
> than FR-4 to provide the required insulation resistance requirements.
> Some of the polyimide film materials have excellent insulation
> resistance and may be a better choice in this situation.
>
> Regards, Joel
>
>
> Joel S. Peiffer
> 3M Electronic Materials Solutions Division 3M Center, Building
> 201-1E-17 St. Paul, MN 55144
> Tel: (651) 575-1464
> Cell: (612) 327-1983
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> From: "Brooks, William" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: 06/20/2014 10:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [DC] z-axis separation for high voltage
> Sent by: DesignerCouncil <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
>
> The epoxy/glass dielectric actually is spec'd at 750V per mil
> insulation resistance perpendicular to the layers according to
> Mil-P-13949/4C for FR4 glass epoxy laminated materials. So 1.3 mils
> minimum of material perpendicular to the layers would net you 1KV
> insulation resistance top to bottom or internal layer to layer.
>
> Always give yourself some margin... The back side of the copper foil
> is rough and can be 'spiked' on the laminated side for foil
> adhesion... those spikes can cause the spacing to be less than the
> minimum target spacing you require when laminated. Also there can be
> bubbles or voids in the materials that could occur right between your
> two high voltage conductors... Unless you are trying to mimic a
> capacitance plane pair, there is little or no reason to have the high voltage lines that close.
> You don't want a short to occur internally in the board. Give yourself
> a buffer of at least a couple of additional layers of 2 mil prepreg on
> internal layers. Just saying... :) Good design practice is to de-rate
> by 50%.
>
> I don't warranty sharing my observations... or advice... but if you
> feel the need to compensate me... I like microbrewery beers... the
> Darker Belgian style... I'm not a big hops lover... though I like the
> hoppy beers too just not as much... :)
>
>
> William Brooks, CID+
> Senior MTS (Contract)
> 2747 Loker Ave West
> Carlsbad, CA 92010-6603
> 760-930-7212
> Fax: 760.918.8332
> Mobile: 760.216.0170
> E-mail: [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> Jack Olson
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2014 7:35 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [DC] z-axis separation for high voltage
>
> maybe I'm having a "not enough coffee yet" morning, but I was asked
> how much separation I need between layers for high voltage.
>
> We have a design that may have 1700V in several places.
> Since we are looking at a clearance into the board, layer-to-layer I'm
> pretty sure I can use the "internal" column B1 of Table 6-1 in
> IPC-2221 (using Table 6-1 for z-axis was discussed in a committee
> meeting and no one
> disagreed)
>
> but the number I get for 1700V is =
> (.25 mm for the first 500V) plus (.0025 mm for each of the other
> 1200V, 3
> mm)
> equals 3.25 mm
>
> For one thing, it already seems like I'm off-track because .25 for
> 500V doesn't correspond very well with 3 mm for 1200V, but if you
> can't trust IPC..... well, let's not go there.
>
> My REAL question is that, although I'm safe using 3.25 mm, my board is
> not that thick!
> Is there a smaller z-axis clearance that can be used for 1700V? across
> typical FR4 material?
> (we are using a RoHS compatible 170Tg /126)
>
> What's the MINIMUM layer spacing I can use for 1700V?
>
> thanks,
> Jack
>
>
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