Bill,
I couldn't agree with you more. Whether the ECAD venders (are you listening Altium?) add this to their existing software or through an IPC-2581 version that Dieter proposes, this is truly needed. I'll need that cheese now too. ;0)
My regards,
Steve Smith
Project Engineer
Staco Energy Products Co.
"Your tailored power solutions provider"
DISCLAIMER AND/OR CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:
This message, including any attached materials, is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this electronic mail transmission is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please e-mail or call Staco Energy Products Co. at (937) 253-1191. Thank you for your cooperation.
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brooks, William
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 10:57 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] Questioning the trend to use the schematic diagram as a Bill of material generation source
Thanks Steve,
We are adding mechanical parts to the schematic on a regular basis here...
The goal is a complete BOM, in excel, up-loadable to the MRP system...
To do this I am making library symbols of mechanical parts... and as a result getting into philosophical discussions about how they get used in the schematic...
Personally this is all new territory from a standards point of view... we are 'writing the book' on this...
I design and teach using the standards, and to invent a method of using the tool the way it was not intended to be used to get the results you want is creative, but also can cause issues and disagreements about method, content, symbology, procedure... etc... it can be a little uncomfortable at times...
We use Altium here... we also create cable drawings here using the schematic editor in Altium...
As you can imagine, creating library symbols that represent the mechanical nature of a cable drawing with connectors, 'bubble' item callouts or 'find numbers' dimensions, tables, etc... is a little challenging... but we have been successfully doing it for the last year or so... the nice thing about it, is we get a BOM that is automated out of the drawings... Which is nice. But it comes at a cost in effort...
As CAD operators, we are hampered by the limitations of the schematic editor (which was designed to make schematics)... it would be nice if the CAD Vendors understood the inherent additional mechanical nature of electronics design and gave the user PCB like automated features and control of the design the way people really need to work. Most of them have the standard toolsets... and if you use them their way, you can get your work done... but there is always a need to get creative with the tool to make it do what you need done, rather than just use it as it was designed to be used.
I was and still am part of the camp that says... mechanical parts don't belong on the electrical schematic.
But until someone makes a toolset that works that way, I'm forced to 'bend the rules' to accommodate the needs of the job. Automated uploading of BOMs is a real advantage to a task that can be very labor intensive and fraught with errors... it's like having the 'easy button'... :) I guess I'll have to keep working around the tool until someone invents a better way to get the job done... :)
(I need some cheese to go with my 'whine') lol
Have a great day...
William Brooks, CID+
Senior MTS (Contract)
2747 Loker Ave West
Carlsbad, CA 92010-6603
760-930-7212
Fax: 760.918.8332
Mobile: 760.216.0170
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Smith [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 5:39 AM
To: (Designers Council Forum); Brooks, William
Subject: RE: [DC] Questioning the trend to use the schematic diagram as a Bill of material generation source
Once upon a time I was in the "put the mechanical parts on the BOM after the CAD is done" camp. But Altium puts out its BOM in Excel format and if the schematic was revised you had to manually add the mechanical parts or else get a call from the assembly house asking for the info on the hardware or other mechanical parts. We had an engineer who started putting the mechanical parts on the schematic and at first I bulked against this but later came to see it as a problem solver since we would no longer have to ensure that the mechanical parts were added later and there was less chance of forgetting a part.
As Mr. Brooks has noted, there is a potential for revising the schematic only for the mechanical data if you do it this way. I have been thinking about having the mechanical parts put on a different sheet saved as Mech_Parts.sch so that a change of a mechanical part will not affect the schematic but have yet to implement it.
My regards,
Steve Smith
Project Engineer
Staco Energy Products Co.
"Your tailored power solutions provider"
DISCLAIMER AND/OR CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:
This message, including any attached materials, is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this electronic mail transmission is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please e-mail or call Staco Energy Products Co. at (937) 253-1191. Thank you for your cooperation.
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brooks, William
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2013 6:57 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] Questioning the trend to use the schematic diagram as a Bill of material generation source
I think the CAD tools are not being designed to work the way many people are required to work... Perhaps they are being designed to work the way that the programmers think they ought to work??? Most of us are flexible and work with it whatever way it works.... but is it the best way for us to work on a project as a project team? ?
Assemblers have to be very versatile to deal with the different ways designers and engineers deliver their data... Some contract assembly houses do turn-key assembly... you supply the BOM, and design files... they go purchase the parts, the bare board, and assemble to your data... right?
Think about how ridiculous it is to have to edit the electrical schematic and roll the rev every time someone needs to change a mechanical part... really?
In my estimation, the ideal system would allow the mechanical data to be input into an 'assembly' part of the CAD tool that placed the mechanical parts on the referenced board 3d model... and then handled multiple levels of the assembly, hand stuffed, automated assembly, referencing fixtures for soldering, or alignment of parts prior to soldering... All this with the ability to look at nested assemblies from the top assembly on down to the board sub-assemblies... all in one tool. This would be the device that controlled the Bill of Materials... and referenced cad data... and kept track of the revisions...
Some projects can get pretty complex, signal integrity thru multiple boards and cables to get to one module from another would be pretty cool to be able to model... on one system.
Just sayin...
I think then we could let the schematic be a schematic and the mechanical stuff would reside in a mechanical area of the design...
If only someone would invent it...
William Brooks, CID+
Senior MTS (Contract)
2747 Loker Ave West
Carlsbad, CA 92010-6603
760-930-7212
Fax: 760.918.8332
Mobile: 760.216.0170
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brooks, William
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2013 2:26 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] Questioning the trend to use the schematic diagram as a Bill of material generation source
Good discussion... It seems from your comments that others have experienced this 'phenomenon'... and found ways to accommodate the wishes of their customers, or management as the case may be...
I also have added mechanical and other non-electrical parts to the schematic on a 'junk' page to make them show up in the BOM for the board... sometimes they have footprints and sometimes they don't...
Examples of items that may or may not belong on the BOM that aren't electrical are things like fiducials, mounting holes, tooling holes, brackets, card ejectors, stiffeners, heat sinks, sil-pads, nylon washers and screws to isolate TO-220 transistors, some mounting terminals, clips for fuses, standoffs, spacers, etc...
William Brooks, CID+
Senior MTS (Contract)
2747 Loker Ave West
Carlsbad, CA 92010-6603
760-930-7212
Fax: 760.918.8332
Mobile: 760.216.0170
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
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