Yep,
Too busy choppin' wood to sharpen the axe, right?
seeya,
Jack (aka "the new guy")
"moonman"
<[log in to unmask]
>
To
08/24/2004 11:09 To
AM "Jack C. Olson"
<[log in to unmask]>
cc
Subject
Re: [DC] questions please
Caterpillar: Confidential Green Retain Until: 09/23/2004
Retention Category: G90 -
General
Matters/Administration
Jack,
It really is amazing and very gratifying to see how far we've come. You're
sure right about technical people writing for others technical instead of
trying to sell something.
Concerning the issue about designers improving I can say without a doubt
the
biggest one is NOT HAVING THE TIME, as you say. It may not be the
designer's
fault but that person has to make a strong appeal to management to make
more
time to do it right up front - starting at the schematic level.
How many times do we say "I don't have time to do it right but I've the
time
to do it over?" Those words just seem to come out of our mouths so easily
but what a shame we have to say them when all the answers are there. One
example is when someone releases a design thought to be complete but some
of
the most important things are missing as good drawings and specifications
with which to communicate requirements, qualify suppliers, and accept or
reject product.
I'm sure you, as well as the rest of us, have seen way too much time WASTED
dealing with good suppliers that do a lot of the DFM work we should have
done but for lack of time and the ability to COMMUNICATE clearly our needs.
I can't tell you how many times I've helped folks qualify better suppliers
that can be worked with concurrently when the proper language is used. If
not, a design package is sent out and it may take several weeks to resolve
all the fabricator's or assembler's DFM issues when it should take two or
three days at most. Of course, that is more difficicult now dealing with
Chinese suppliers - as one example - because many of them don't speak any
language but price.
I've been in a lot of companies both crusading and teaching really
interesting technical stuff but I learn far more than I teach and that's
what I want to do here. I want to take this time to do it better next time.
MoonMan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack C. Olson" <[log in to unmask]>
To: "moonman" <[log in to unmask]>
Cc: "(Designers Council Forum)" <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: [DC] questions please
>
> Sounds like you have a lot of experience in this area.
>
> Sometimes I read articles that say we need to pay
> more attention to DFM or EMI or TQE or whatever,
> but no practical information is given to help me improve
> in those areas. I prefer to read the articles that have
> data and charts and some kind of specific thing I can
> learn to improve my skills, and maybe give an example.
>
> I remember when I first started reading PCD magazine
> and trying to learn design, it seemed like most of the
> articles were written by marketing people who talked
> in generalities. It was so frustrating I personally asked
> Pete Waddell where I could learn someting more
> practical. That was a long time ago (before the PCB
> Design Conferences ever started), but just take a look
> at how far we have come.
> Just look at the LATEST issue for example.
> http://pcdandm.com/pcdmag/mag/current_issue.shtml
>
> We have articles on:
>
> "What Designers Need to Know About Testing"
> http://pcdandm.com/pcdmag/mag/0408/0408hanson.pdf
>
> "How Does Return Current Really Return?"
> http://pcdandm.com/pcdmag/mag/0408/0408nomyths.pdf
>
> "Avoiding Differential Pair Routing Violations"
> http://pcdandm.com/pcdmag/mag/0408/0408riazi.pdf
>
> "The History of Embedded Distributed Capacitance"
> http://pcdandm.com/pcdmag/mag/0408/0408peiffer.pdf
>
> "Designing Flexible Circuits"
> http://pcdandm.com/pcdmag/mag/0408/0408buetow.pdf
>
> and another one on "Interconnect Defects"
> http://pcdandm.com/pcdmag/mag/0408/0408plating.pdf
>
> (that's just the design related ones, I'm ignoring the
> ones like Lead Free and MicroVia markets, etc)
>
> This much technical info in ONE ISSUE is INCREDIBLE!
> and this is FREE?
>
> anyway...
>
> I doubt you are going to get a whole lot of answers
> when you ask a question like
> "How Do Designers Use DFM?"
> I am too busy to even be writing THIS, must less trying
> to answer THAT (which is why you may not hear from me
> again today). Its like if someone came here and asked
> "How Do You Design A PCB?".
> Maybe Bill Brooks is willing to try that one, but not me.
>
> I guess in a way its a difference between talking
> philosophically and talking technically. I tend to use
> this forum for technical questions and answers. There
> is nothing like having a 24hour resource at your disposal
> when you get stuck on something.
>
> So I have a specific question for you:
> In all your dealings with the industry out there, what is
> the biggest mistakes designers make? Name one thing that
> if designers would improve on, would make circuit board
> manufacturing more efficient and error free?
>
>
>
>
>
> "moonman"
> <[log in to unmask]
> >
>
To
> 08/24/2004 07:02
To
> AM "\(Designers Council Forum\)"
> <[log in to unmask]>
> "Jack C. Olson"
> <[log in to unmask]>
>
cc
>
>
>
>
>
>
Subject
> Re: [DC] questions please
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Caterpillar: Confidential Green Retain Until: 09/23/2004
> Retention Category: G90
-
> General
> Matters/Administration
>
>
> Jack,
>
> I'll start the discussion you proposed with:
>
> 1) This is not about the book. The book discussion started a few strings
> ago
> between Bill Brooks and myself. I won't go back into that now but look
> forward to how, once he has read it, his points can serve as a positive
> platform for a healthy discussion concerning DFM/CE.
>
> 2) I use my book, or any other on the subject, as a frame of reference as
> so
> many folks have bought it and understand that DFM most often is discussed
> without benefit of CE. The feedback I'm receiving from industries other
> than
> PCB, where most of the books have been sold, is a general lack of
> understanding about what concurrent engineering is except in the military
> and aerospace arenas. In the PCB world, very few folks understand it at
all
> which is AMAZING to me. Not only do many designers not understand
> fabrication and assembly processes very well, they often cannot talk
about
> their requirements in a language that can be understood by those building
> product. Fabrication and assembly folks often do not understand each
> other's
> needs either until it becomes an issue arising as defect is found.
However,
> they sure can offer design improvement suggestions after the fact when
it's
> too late. Concurrent engineering is exactly what it takes for DFM to
work.
> Simply, DFM cannot be effected without CE and CE is not possible without
> responsible experts in all associated disciplines discussing their needs
> and
> capabilities at the earliest design phase - at the conceptual level
> preferably or, at a minimum, at the schematic level.
>
> 3) The reason I asked the question in the first place was to determine
how
> designers use DFM, what is included in it, how the IPC defines and
promotes
> it, and what it takes for designers to communicate their requirements so
> fabricators and assemblers know exactly what the customer needs - UP
FRONT
> instead after doing it over again.
>
> 3) Too often DFM is separate from CE if considered at all. Again, DFM
> cannot
> be effected without CE but the more I work in this industry, the more I
> find
> questions going unanswered because the design must get finished and out
the
> door ASAP regardless what it costs in the end.
>
> 4) I was lucky enough, almost 40 years ago to design hybrid and printed
> circuits then go next door to our lab and build the things. I saw and
> learned first hand effects, good and bad, of my efforts. I know very few
> others having had this experience and out of the hundreds of designers
I've
> had the pleasure of working with, very few ever have been in a board shop
> or
> assembly house. Almost as few even know how to communicate their needs to
> counterparts on what should be a cohesive, concurrently acting, DFM team.
>
> I don't want to rewrite the book here so my question remains, what do we
> all
> need to improve? As I currently writing a book about total process (not
> quality) management and updating the DFM/CE book for next year, I need
your
> input about SPECIFIC areas relating to DFM and how you would better use
it.
> IPC has improved its capabilities especially over the past few years and
> offers so much to us all in terms of guidelines, standards, and
> specifications. It is a great general starting point. My starting point,
> after understanding all that, is the MASTER DRAWING used as the CE
language
> cornerstone. What's yours?
>
> Thanks,
>
> MoonMan
>
>
>
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