What? You actually think you _GET_ something for the money you send in
every year???
:) :p
--
George Patrick
Tektronix, Inc.
Central Engineering, EDS Applications Support
P.O. Box 500, M/S 39-512
Beaverton, OR 97077-0001
* 503-627-5272 (voice) * 503-627-5587 (fax)
http://www.tektronix.com http://www.pcb-designer.com
"Off-Grid and Proud of it!"
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl
Bates
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 08:03
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] DesignerCouncil Digest - 18 Jun 2007 to 20 Jun 2007
(#2007-119)
I wonder if this should be something that the IPC should handle ? I
would
think they would champion causes like this for the industry as a whole.
I would think they should contact the patent office or have their lawyer
do
this, it would definitely stifle industry as a whole if this patent was
upheld in a court of law. Maybe IEEE ? SMTA ?? or the whole group
!
Karl
From: Dave Schaefer <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: "(Designers Council Forum)" <[log in to unmask]>,
Dave Schaefer <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] DesignerCouncil Digest - 18 Jun 2007 to 20 Jun 2007
(#2007-119)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 09:27:28 -0500
What a truly revolutionary practice ... using planes on PCB outer layers
!!
I'll file that one the same place I filed the patent on fanning out
BGAs.
>
> From: DesignerCouncil automatic digest system
<[log in to unmask]>
> Date: 2007/06/21 Thu AM 12:00:12 CDT
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: DesignerCouncil Digest - 18 Jun 2007 to 20 Jun 2007
(#2007-119)
>
>
Dave Schaefer
[log in to unmask]
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Apologies if this has already been posted, I just came across it trying
to
find
some info on removing via pads on internal layers (can anyone point to
any
articles for why/why not to do this?)
The first hit on a Google search for "suppressing vias internal layers
pcb"
was this:
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7016198.html
eh?
Matthew
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Good luck enforcing that one. That's like having a patent on the
sandwhich.
Of
course, Time Warner owns the copyright to the song "Happy Birthday", so
anything is possible. I think I'll patent sarcasm... I'll be rich.......
Date sent: Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:47:57 +0100
Send reply to: "(Designers Council Forum)"
<[log in to unmask]>,
Matthew Lamkin <[log in to unmask]>
From: Matthew Lamkin <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: [DC] Are multi layer boards with external planes
patented
now?
Originally to: "DesignerCouncil (E-mail)"
<[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
> Apologies if this has already been posted, I just came across it
trying
to find
> some info on removing via pads on internal layers (can anyone point
to
any articles for why/why not to do this?)
>
> The first hit on a Google search for "suppressing vias internal
layers
pcb" was this:
>
> http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7016198.html
>
> eh?
>
> Matthew
>
>
>
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Looking at the US patent site, there are loads applicable to PCB's, even
one
for a plain old PCB is patented by Xerox lol.
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Tim
Reid
Sent: 20 June 2007 15:05
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] Are multi layer boards with external planes patented
now?
Good luck enforcing that one. That's like having a patent on the
sandwhich.
Of
course, Time Warner owns the copyright to the song "Happy Birthday", so
anything is possible. I think I'll patent sarcasm... I'll be rich.......
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*I don't think IPC formally addresses this in their guidelines,*
*but here's the scoop in a nutshell:*
**
*Your fabricator wants to remove them because it saves*
*drill bit wear by not having to drill through so many*
*non-functional pads.*
**
*IPC says (informally?) along with many reliability experts*
*to leave them in, forming a more robust "rivet-like" structure,*
*less barrel cracking, etc.*
**
*I leave them in.*
**
*hope that helps,*
*Jack*
On 6/20/07, Matthew Lamkin <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>Apologies if this has already been posted, I just came across it trying
to
>find
>some info on removing via pads on internal layers (can anyone point to
any
>articles for why/why not to do this?)
>
>The first hit on a Google search for "suppressing vias internal layers
>pcb" was this:
>
>http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7016198.html
>
>eh?
>
>Matthew
>
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>solely for the addressee(s) and may be legally privileged and/or
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>return. Unless expressly stated otherwise, and subject to the
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>agreement between the recipient and Protec Fire Detection Plc.
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>no. 1170489). Registered Office: Churchill Way. Nelson. BB9 6RT.
>Lancashire.
>United Kingdom.
>Messages sent via this medium may be subject to delays, non-delivery
and
>unauthorised alteration. This email has been prepared using information
>believed by the author to be reliable and accurate, but Protec Fire
>Detection Plc. makes no warranty as to accuracy or completeness. In
>particular, Protec Fire Detection Plc. does not accept responsibility
for
>changes made to this email after it was sent. Any opinions or
>recommendations expressed herein are solely those of the author.
>
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I think the real question should be when is it cost effective to leave
non-functional lands in?
A six layer board with a low aspect ratio will have very little benefit
from
having them left on the board. Where as a board with a high aspect ratio
will benefit from it tremendously. Also if a design is a commercial
product
and high reliability is not necessary then why risk the increased cost
or
production time?
So it depends,
What is the aspect ratio of the board? The way to calculate it is
to
take the maximum thickness of the PCB and divided it by the smallest
drill
hole. The maximum thickness is the is the stack-up plus the thickness of
the
copper prior to plating. Do not use soldermask or platting finish in
your
calculation. The ratio you come up with can be used to compare with what
your board supplier says they can handle.
What is the end use product? Is it a keypad for a microwave oven or
is
it the controls to a fighter jet? If it is a product that is mass
produced
and used in a commercial environment then you shouldn't need them. If
the
end product is going to go into a life saving device or something
critical
then it may be a good idea to leave them in. Especially if your aspect
ratio
is close to what your board supplier says is their comfort zone.
Ted T.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Olson" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [DC] Are multi layer boards with external planes patented
now?
> *I don't think IPC formally addresses this in their guidelines,*
> *but here's the scoop in a nutshell:*
> **
> *Your fabricator wants to remove them because it saves*
> *drill bit wear by not having to drill through so many*
> *non-functional pads.*
> **
> *IPC says (informally?) along with many reliability experts*
> *to leave them in, forming a more robust "rivet-like" structure,*
> *less barrel cracking, etc.*
> **
> *I leave them in.*
> **
> *hope that helps,*
> *Jack*
>
>
> On 6/20/07, Matthew Lamkin <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Apologies if this has already been posted, I just came across it
trying
to
> > find
> > some info on removing via pads on internal layers (can anyone point
to
any
> > articles for why/why not to do this?)
> >
> > The first hit on a Google search for "suppressing vias internal
layers
> > pcb" was this:
> >
> > http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7016198.html
> >
> > eh?
> >
> > Matthew
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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> > contact the sender on the telephone number +44-(0)1282-717171 or
via
email
> > return. Unless expressly stated otherwise, and subject to the
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> > below, this email does not form part of a legally binding contract
or
> > agreement between the recipient and Protec Fire Detection Plc.
(registered
> > no. 1170489). Registered Office: Churchill Way. Nelson. BB9 6RT.
Lancashire.
> > United Kingdom.
> > Messages sent via this medium may be subject to delays,
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> > unauthorised alteration. This email has been prepared using
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> > believed by the author to be reliable and accurate, but Protec Fire
> > Detection Plc. makes no warranty as to accuracy or completeness. In
> > particular, Protec Fire Detection Plc. does not accept
responsibility
for
> > changes made to this email after it was sent. Any opinions or
> > recommendations expressed herein are solely those of the author.
> >
>
>
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dang...
That was a MUCH better answer than I gave!
I'm changing my answer to: "What he said."
Jack
On 6/20/07, Ted Tontis <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>I think the real question should be when is it cost effective to leave
>non-functional lands in?
>A six layer board with a low aspect ratio will have very little benefit
>from
>having them left on the board. Where as a board with a high aspect
ratio
>will benefit from it tremendously. Also if a design is a commercial
>product
>and high reliability is not necessary then why risk the increased cost
or
>production time?
>So it depends,
> What is the aspect ratio of the board? The way to calculate it is
to
>take the maximum thickness of the PCB and divided it by the smallest
drill
>hole. The maximum thickness is the is the stack-up plus the thickness
of
>the
>copper prior to plating. Do not use soldermask or platting finish in
your
>calculation. The ratio you come up with can be used to compare with
what
>your board supplier says they can handle.
>
> What is the end use product? Is it a keypad for a microwave oven or
is
>it the controls to a fighter jet? If it is a product that is mass
produced
>and used in a commercial environment then you shouldn't need them. If
the
>end product is going to go into a life saving device or something
critical
>then it may be a good idea to leave them in. Especially if your aspect
>ratio
>is close to what your board supplier says is their comfort zone.
>
>Ted T.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jack Olson" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 3:40 PM
>Subject: Re: [DC] Are multi layer boards with external planes patented
>now?
>
>
> > *I don't think IPC formally addresses this in their guidelines,*
> > *but here's the scoop in a nutshell:*
> > **
> > *Your fabricator wants to remove them because it saves*
> > *drill bit wear by not having to drill through so many*
> > *non-functional pads.*
> > **
> > *IPC says (informally?) along with many reliability experts*
> > *to leave them in, forming a more robust "rivet-like" structure,*
> > *less barrel cracking, etc.*
> > **
> > *I leave them in.*
> > **
> > *hope that helps,*
> > *Jack*
> >
> >
> > On 6/20/07, Matthew Lamkin <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Apologies if this has already been posted, I just came across it
>trying
>to
> > > find
> > > some info on removing via pads on internal layers (can anyone
point to
>any
> > > articles for why/why not to do this?)
> > >
> > > The first hit on a Google search for "suppressing vias internal
layers
> > > pcb" was this:
> > >
> > > http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7016198.html
> > >
> > > eh?
> > >
> > > Matthew
>
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DesignerCouncil Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using
LISTSERV 1.8d
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text
in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF DesignerCouncil.
To temporarily stop/(restart) delivery of DesignerCouncil send: SET
DesignerCouncil NOMAIL/(MAIL)
Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases
> E-mail Archives
Please visit IPC web site
http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional
information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100
ext.2815
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DesignerCouncil Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d
To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in
the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF DesignerCouncil.
To temporarily stop/(restart) delivery of DesignerCouncil send: SET DesignerCouncil NOMAIL/(MAIL)
Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases > E-mail Archives
Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815
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