e-hear..E-HEAR!!
Edward S. Tordahl, CID+, MCSE
President, Long Island Chapter of the IPC Designers Council
***Making Better Corporations by making Better Designers***
http://dcchapters.ipc.org/long_island/
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
Barbara Burcham
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 10:49
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications (or new subject maybe)
Oh Andy, Andy, Andy......
I care about these issues.
Me, the little ole' backwater designer.
Me, the designer who worked hard to earn my CID.
Me, the designer who did not even know that there was an Executive Board
that represented my concerns to the IPC (step-daddy of the local
Council) until a friend joined the Executive Board.
Me, the designer who now understands that being on the Executive Board
is a volunteer position rather than an elected position.
Me, the designer who realizes how difficult it is to get designers to
input their ideas to the board and how tough it is to relay information
back to them from the Board.
I would like to see an Organizational Chart that shows how the IPC works
and where the local Councils fit into the IPC Organization.
Something that tells me who Denny, Jean, Christi, and Nilesh are. Those
names have no faces and mean little to me until I understand their
positions.
Without Engineering to create electrical functions,
Without Designers to create layouts that make those engineering dreams a
functional reality,
No one would need Fabrication or Assembly or Standards, or the IPC. They
could all take their toys and go home.
Engineering has the IEEE
Assembly and Fab have the SMTA
Designers have the IPC....?
The WASH does NOT have to be DIRTY, but I would like to know what is
going on in my behalf.
What are the issues?
What is the EX Council doing?
What is the IPC doing in response?
I would like to hear this online.
I would NOT care to e-hear a slamming session online.
Barbara J. Burcham, C.I.D.
Fairfield Industries, Inc
281-275-7687
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Andy
Kowalewski
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 7:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications (or new subject maybe)
I need to make a comment here:
The Designers Council Executive Board is working hard to get the best
deal
for designers possible. Right now, we all realize there is some way to
go
with that, but we're heading in the right direction, albeit more slowly
than
any of us would like.
Nilesh is very active in Designer Council affairs. Nilesh has stated
more
than once that he sees designers as crucial in the design/fab/assembly
continuum, and he works hard behind the scenes to raise the status of
designers and the Designers Council to the professional levels where
these
belong. I have every confidence in him continuing to do that, and while
he
also has limits on his influence with the powers that be, he adds
considerable experience and knowledge to our debate, and I believe is
just
the man to push our agenda on our behalf in front of the IPC Board and
other
places.
At the same time Jean Hebeisen and Christi Poulsen work very hard on our
behalf and are doing a great job with the limited time and resources at
their disposal.
It's my belief that we should support Nilesh, Jean and Christi in every
way
possible so that our own suggestions and advice reach a level where
there is
the authority to act on them.
And none of us laughed at you when you suggested Board representation by
the
Designers Council. We all thought it was a good idea, the subject was
raised
in Albuquerque in August, and Denny told us that by the terms of the IPC
Charter, as individuals we didn't qualify for representation, or
something
like that. So be it - the subject is not dead but nevertheless I have
every
confidence in Nilesh representing our views.
Bill, I'd like to make a suggestion. We should probably keep the
nitty-gritty issues within the DC Executive. Displaying our dirty
washing to
the public doesn't help our cause at all, and as you said yourself, I'm
not
sure too many designers are that interested.
Andy Kowalewski
Chairman, DC Executive Board
[log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Brooks,Bill
Sent: Wednesday, 23 March 2005 09:23
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications (or new subject maybe)
Interesting comment Pete,... I really wasn't privy to other specs and
their
creation but I was in the meetings for the CID+ creation and did see how
that was run I have only been in on this since 2001.
We actually do have representation that 'intercedes' for us to the IPC
in
Nelish, Jean and Christi. They do listen to our suggestions and our
comments... and we appreciate their efforts and support. They do get a
lot
done... and manage a lot for as small a group as they are... The
different
committees made up of designers like us take our members wishes and
needs to
the IPC staff and get them to present those in the form of programs and
events to help meet those needs.
It's funny you should say that, because I have always thought that in
principle, the DC should have 'equal representation' on the IPC board of
Directors...or whatever policy making body there is that affect our
future,
equal to the PCB manufacturers and Assembly folks if you get my drift.
After
all we are a fundamental part of the whole industry aren't we? But I
don't
think we could afford to pay the kind of money they do to stay
in-the-game
after the revelations that they do ante up a pretty sum of cash as a
standard practice... (Too pricey for my wallet if they wanted my
participation).
Anyway, it has never been offered and the few times I naively mentioned
it
in meetings and discussions I was laughed at and told that there was 'no
way' we would get someone from our group on the board... I guess the
thought
is out of the question as far as the 'true' IPC members are concerned...
Unless they do have someone who is a designer from the DC at their board
meetings, they aren't really going to hear the true designers point of
view
from someone who has been there... someone who has been a designer all
their
lives and can speak it straight... the way it truly is. I wouldn't hold
my
breath though... it will probably be a long, long time... if ever...
until
anything even remotely like the DC having influence over any of the
policy
of the IPC happens... I don't expect the IPC will come running to us
asking
us to be on the board... not anytime soon... and by contrast, anything
less
is not really not true representation by a designer though... now is
it?...
so in effect we are 'attached' to them, supported by them, but without a
lot
of clout or say about what they do or how or when they do it... we
depend on
the 'good graces' of the representatives that we meet with and
coordinate
with to get things done and our comments pass thorough a filter of
sorts...
but it has all worked up to now...
We are communicating with them through our representatives the best we
can
through the system that is in place now... and so far we are having some
success with most of the things we need to do... there are some that we
meet
resistance on too... but you can't win them all... they have their own
things on their plates to deal with too. We just keep at it and hope
they
get the message... most of the time they do. We do have folks in the IPC
that really appreciate our group and its needs and they want to help us
succeed as an organization. We are truly thankful that they recognize
that
and we need their support.
We can talk about it but I don't think we are going to change 'city
hall'
anytime soon. Besides most designers don't want to be bothered with all
the
stuff the IPC is into... we just want our issues dealt with and the
backing
it takes to get things done to make the PCB industry a better place for
designers to make a living and to help make better products for our
companies... some of whom are 'true' IPC members I might add... I think
we
do that through educational content and opportunities we can present to
our
fellow designers to advance their careers. And so far the IPC has been
helping us do just that in a lot of ways.
Best regards,
Bill Brooks - KG6VVP
PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I.
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
e-mail:[log in to unmask]
http://www.dtwc.com
http://pcbwizards.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Waddell [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 12:16 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications (or new subject maybe)
Bill, the CID is not a standard. Apples and oranges. Thing is designers
should be part of the process. We all know how important design is to
the
process and for one reason or another they are still being shut out of
the
process. By shut out I mean they are not accorded (wether by management
or
??) they same level of importance accorded other disciplines. I still
sayall
of us are the ones to set that right.
p.
Pete Waddell
President
UP Media Group
678-589-8813
[log in to unmask]
>>> [log in to unmask] 03/22/05 01:01PM >>>
Hi Mike,
Well, I can think of one exception... The creation of the DC CID and
CID+
study guides and test were done almost entirely by designers
contributing to
the creation of the material and tests... I think the only IPC staff
persons
assembling and editing it was Deiter and Gary. At least they were the
ones
going all over the country having meetings with the individual designers
that contributed their weekends to the creation of the materials and
objectives.
I also noticed when I was at IPC APEX/Designer Summit in Anaheim that
there
were substantial fees paid to attend standards meetings that were being
held
there...
I have never had to pay to attend a meeting yet, so I know they don't
charge
the designers to attend our meetings but I did think it was strange to
charge the folks that came to the spec creation meetings... maybe now I
understand why... if they are paid representatives from companies that
want
to influence the outcome of the spec... interesting...
I know the designers can't do that and aren't being paid by some company
as
lobbyists to influence the spec creation... :) we can't hardly afford to
by
some of the specs let alone lobby the outcome...
Thanks for the insight into the IPC's inner workings though... it's not
an
easy thing to understand where they are coming from for a lot of us...
Best regards,
Bill Brooks - KG6VVP
PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I.
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
e-mail:[log in to unmask]
http://www.dtwc.com
http://pcbwizards.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Buetow [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 9:29 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications (or new subject maybe)
Having spent 4 of my 6 years at IPC working on standards, I want to
clarify
one thing. The great majority of those who worked the most on the
standards
-- i.e., attended the meetings, wrote the verbiag,e etc. -- did so on
assignment for their respective companies. In short, it was considered
part
of their jobs. Some companies -- Northrop and TI were two -- assigned
particular individuals to maintain roles on dozens on standards task
groups
across many organizations (EIA, Jedec, IPC, ESDA, etc.). These
individuals'
sole responsibility was to coordinate their respective companies'
positions
and ensure their input into the standards groups. (Some of these folks
were
paid very well, some in the six figures, I might add.)
So the notion that the men and women who wrote the specs were doing so
on
their own time and expense is mostly myth. Like anything, there were
(and
are) exceptions, of course.
Mike
>>> "Nick Ban (PCBL)" <[log in to unmask]> 03/22/05 12:18 PM >>>
Please search your post, you will find you did in fact mention
"PCBStandards", and I merely corrected you. PCB Libraries has on several
occasions been confused for PCBStandards. They are NOT the same. Why are
you
telling me I'm wrong in correcting you? Also, if you make my company
look
bad (ie suspicious), are you telling me I have to right to
explain/correct
your statements?
So far I noticed three types of people replying to my messages both
online
and offline.
1. PCB Libraries is doing a good job and my company is
currently or can benefit
2. PCB Libraries should provide its innovation for free
- Its developers and creditors don't necessarily need
to recover their costs; hey it's all for the good of
society, right?
3. Volunteers should spend the next several years reinventing
the wheel and making the software available for free
- Spend the next 5-10 years reinventing the wheel with
volunteers working on this part-time. It's all good if
you can do the same for free out of the goodness of your
heart and the whole industry will thank you. I'm inclined
to believe by the time volunteers are done, there will
be other tools that do MUCH more than simple calculations
and a simple calculator like the 782 one-tier online calculator
is quite obsolete.
How do you plan on competing in the global economy with something that's
simple and obsolete? Those in category 2 and 3 are only going to let
more
jobs float away overseas to cheaper labor.
There are those who invest a few weeks worth of savings they would reap
from
an innovation, and there are those who won't. Over the next year, more
jobs
will probably be lost to cheaper labor because some just refuse to work
smarter. That is (and will be) their problem, but unfortunately, it's
our
industry.
Now regarding the IPC standards, I don't want to say anything about
people
commenting on price now, but applying this concept to the development of
standards... I must say that from what I recall of my days at IPC,
pretty
much nobody who commented on the pricing of standards was involved in
creating them.
Apparently the volunteers know that creating the standards takes much
more
time and money than they can put on the table.
Nick
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